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Ymirr's avatar

voss + stent

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voss parck + kres'ten'tarthi SW EU
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Adalack's avatar
I like these men, however I detest their actions that're implied in this, Sir.
And I especially like the novel that they show up in too, so thank you for citing that, albeit indirectly by showing this picture set, the one to our left is the more sound as far as true masculine behavior overall, though.
Ymirr's avatar

I like them too, if you haven't read them, they can be found in some short stories as well, by Zahn or Cunningham.


As for "true masculine behavior" that's entirely based on culture and perceptions.

Seeing as this is a fictional universe, with many, many different cultures. How theirs is depicted doesn't need to reflect our own.

In some of our cultures, men hold hands and are generally more physically affectionate with one another, without there being anything sexual or romantic behind it. It wasn't that long ago men in the west could do that as well, without the fear and stigma of being labelled gay. https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/



But you know as well as I do that what is implied in the second image isn't intimacy of mere friendship.

The need for affection and love, regardless of which form it manifests, is a human need. So the image may not reflect your personal view on true masculine behavior, but its basis is true human behavior. Which is why I think it's a shame that men have been "bullied out of intimacy" among themselves. More common for us to kill one another than be affectionate. Which makes me wonder, why do you detest it?

Adalack's avatar
That's an interesting argument you have about masculinity in other cultures in the world; I was just going through some ideas from past stories about how men interacted in say the Near East in late Old Testament/very early New Testament days, and I think it sums up to being when the adult children started to move far away from where their parents lived... that had several changes in really rapid succession, lengthening childhood overall, as then you had to be able to fend for yourself in a foreign land kind of deal, as well as the resource availability to be able to move on the part of the bulk of the population, due to the ability to harvest the resources.
In a way, I can see Stent reading say those historical books to find out about his neighbors- a vital skill for a Chiss man in his job branch to ascertain if a neighboring society is going to be a serious threat, how to neutralize it in the most productive way possible, and also how to deal with them successfully, as his hero, Thrawn, would put it, as a summary of their career choice.
You've soothed my ideas and mind overall about this, and for that I give you a hearty "thank you", and especially for enlightening me as far as what these men mean; by and large, male intimacy if chaste and celibate amounts to things like a clap on the shoulder, or back, and a "Well Done!", as well as possibly bumping heads, like in a football game in the US between the teammates who've just scored a touchdown and the like- or think "Klingons" for how men interact- their society is by and large very masculine, often in the wrong ways too, come to think of it.
I understand what you mean, I think the fear of being labeled a, as I often refer to them in a way I *probably* should avoid doing, "degenerates" (gays), amounts to a reaction to a massive infestation of indecency- which, by the way, is *really* very dangerous to them in particular, as its often aimed at them, and often it appears that those "prodigal children" think they've been "expelled" by their and our adoptive Stepdad, a false impression, but one that's likely there, so they tend to fall victim to sexual impropriety; well, the elder sons tend to react to this rampaging tendency to sexualize everything with brutal disgust, and a degree of rage.
I can testify firsthand of an elder son in that parable's need for the proper kind of affection/intimacy, as well as the deep disgust and overt hatred for the immoral kind, what the elder boy in that parable is after is really the certain knowledge that his kid brother's tendency towards immoral playtime has been abandoned, he doesn't trust him immediately. That single motive is why he initially refuses to enter the party; he thinks his brother's going to end up acting up again, and it is something he hates.
I can't in summary really say I hate and detest male friendship expressions, but rather any kind of immodesty in nature, especially same-sex immodesty, as well as the deeply sexual tendency our world has taken; and if to these men I have been unfair in any way, I apologize.
I think you can find their first showup in the "Hand of Thrawn" miniseries by Zahn, it came out some years ago, maybe even 21 years ago, if memory serves correctly; I was a young man when I first read them, and I'm on the cusp of middle age right now, so it was about half my lifetime ago, but I remember it like yesterday- which it practically was to me.
If anything, as a guy, I remain most satisfied of how my ability to reason has developed over the preceeding years.
Thank you for explaining to me, it has aided me in grasping what these guys are going through.
Sincerely one of your hopefully entirely too many fans;
Adalack.
Ymirr's avatar

This is a late reply.

Put it off I'm afraid, as parts of your response was hard to interpret.

So I'll just ask.

Your issue is with what exactly? Gay people, or immodesty/sex etc? Or both even, and why?

Nefla's avatar
I love it <3