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Ansaldo Big Gun Cruiser Design for Russia by Tzoli Ansaldo Big Gun Cruiser Design for Russia by Tzoli
I've been asked by commander Shas'o'Frosty :iconcommandershasofrosty: to draw this warship with alternative versions for the Italian Navy.

Not much is known about this cruiser design only it's history of choice:
By the mid 1930's Joseph Stalin ordered to develop an Oceanic Red Navy for the Soviet Union and starting of 1936 a large number of warship designs were produced by the engineers and design bureaus of the Soviet Union, including submarines, destroyers, cruisers and battleship, with later carriers included as well. But the Soviet industry lacked the technology and knowledge to build such ships  and thus it searched abroad to acquire the necessary material, such as plans and even complete ships to quick start the Industry. Italy, especially the famous firm Ansaldo at Genoa offered designs as well as plans and even built ships for the Soviet Navy. Built ships include the Dzerzhinskiy and Kirov Guard Ships while modified plans of the Raimondo Montecuccoli were provided for the Soviet shipyards and the cruisers of the Kirov class were built based on them.

In 1936 Ansaldo offered a cruiser killer design armed with 250mm guns with 130 and 100mm ones as secodnary and tertiary guns, with 45mm AA guns. As you can see the guns are of Russian origin while the hull is Italian, the design also offered two catapults with 4 seaplanes.

This warship design is a bit diffcult to accurately classify:
On one hand it is close to the battlecruisers as it's tonnage is more than twice than contemporary heavy cruisers even that of the Japanese and having primary as well as secondary guns, heavy and light AA guns, large size and good armour.
On the other hand very high speed of 69km/h, the usage of torpedo tubes, and larger number of seaplanes with the mission of cruiser hunting puts them closer to the heavy cruiser category.



The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 241,5 x 28 x 7,45m
Displacement: 22.000tons (standard), 26.700tons (full load)
Armour: 90mm Deck, 220mm Belt
Engines: Unknown
Speed: 69km/h (37knots)
Armaments: 
3x3 250mm/55 Guns
6x2 130mm/50 Pattern 1936 Guns (B-2LM mounting)
6x2 100mm/50 Minizini Pattern 1928/30 DP-AA Guns
32x 45mm Pattern 1932 AA Guns (I've chosen 8x2,16x1) (single 21-K and twin 41-K mountings)
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (Beriev Be-2)

Two other hypothetical versions armament as follows:
Italian version with Italian guns:
3x3 253mm/55 Ansaldo Model 1936 Guns
6x2 120mm/50 OTO Model 1933 Guns
6x2 100mm/50 OTO Model 1928 DP-AA Guns
8x2 37mm/54 Breda Model 1932/1938 AA Guns
16x2 20mm/65 Breda Model 1932 AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (IMAM Ro.43)

Modified Italian version of different guns and mid/late war AA armament
3x3 253mm/55 Ansaldo Model 1936 Guns
6x2 135mm/45 Ansaldo Model 1938 Guns
6x2 90mm/50 Ansaldo Model 1939 AA Guns
14x2 37mm/54 Breda Model 1932/1938 AA Guns
24x2 20mm/65 Breda Model 1932 AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
4x Seaplanes (IMAM Ro.43)
Add a Comment:
 
:iconalfredo555:
Alfredo555 Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2018
Great work, as always. A cordial greeting.
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
thx
Reply
:iconalfredo555:
Alfredo555 Featured By Owner Feb 4, 2018
Magnífico trabajo, como siempre. Un cordial saludo.
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Feb 4, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Erm.. Thanks? I think?
Reply
:icondilandu:
Dilandu Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2018
//This warship design is a bit diffcult to accurately classify://

Grandcruiser?)
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Feb 2, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Which is Big cruiser or Large Cruiser as I translate it so essentially Battlecruiser
Reply
:iconuglygosling:
uglygosling Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2018
For the 3rd proposal were the secondary guns the same weapons as mounted on the 'Capitani Romani' class cruisers?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yep
Reply
:iconmidway2009:
Midway2009 Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Awesome cruiser. :eyepopping:
Reply
:icontheabyssalsamurai:
TheAbyssalSamurai Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Hmmm...I think I would classify this ship as a large cruiser: something inbetween a heavy cruiser and a battlecruiser. Some Battlecruisers have torpedoes like O class and Scharnhorst class as well as the same role of hunting down cruisers and some heavy cruisers have thick armour (Des Monies and Baltimore) as well as having secondary guns. Really, this ship is similar to the Project 66 cruiser design of the Russian navy. Maybe go look that up and compare the two.
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Project 66 is more of a heavy cruiser similar tonnage but the armament are consist of 220mm guns.
Large cruiser is just an American fancy name for a Battlecruiser. Alaska classified as such as it's design evolution came from cruisers and not from battleships. (The same evolution led to the Baltimore class Heavy Cruisers).
Probably the best designation is Big Gun Cruiser or Light Battlecruiser. Though I use the Big Gun Cruiser designation for the Deutschland type warships.
Reply
:icontheabyssalsamurai:
TheAbyssalSamurai Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Really? According to some sources the tonnage was around 30,000 tonnes for the Project 66, which is in line with other ships I would call large cruisers like the P class and the D class. 

Andyeah, I've always considered the Alaskas as battlecruisers and instead use the term large cruiser to refer to ships like the P class and the Project 66.  

The Deustchland class certainly were big gun cruisers, though I simply refer to them as heavy cruisers to save time. Or Pocket battlecruisers if I feel informal XD
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yes tonnage size it's quite large of 26.000tons standard and 30.750tons full, but the armament of 220mm DP main and 130mm DP-AA guns it's more like a beefed up Des Moines
Reply
:icontheabyssalsamurai:
TheAbyssalSamurai Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Fair point. Though one does have to wonder how the Germans were able to design the D class with 25,000 tonnes and have around 8inches of belt armour while the P class at 28,000 tonnes with the same firepower and practicually identical speed couldonly mount 4inches of belt armour
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
P class is much faster having 61km/h max speed with a larger engine of 165.000shp also got a longer range of 46.000km instead of the 32.000 of the Deutschalnds. Such large Diesel engines could take up much weight. See this table how speed effects ship size or displacement:
How to design your warship
You can change dimensions for much larger engine

Also D had 220mm Belt and 80mm deck while P had 120mm belt and 70mm deck
Reply
:icontheabyssalsamurai:
TheAbyssalSamurai Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
I see. So the P class focused more on range and speed while the D class focused more on armour protection on a slightly smaller displacement. 

Which one did you think was the better overall design of the two?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 26, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Difficult to answer. KMS Admiral Graf Spee could not lose it's pursuers though he could force them to maintain distance but not enough as she too received hits. With superior speed the P could make a better distance and even escape. Both the York and Leander classes could steam at 60km/h while the Deutschland class max speed was 53km/h now the P's 61km/h would be enough for her to dictate the battle and not the British squadron.
On the other hand the D class could take more pounding but she would always be shadowed by the British and doomed if reinforcments arrive, for the P she has a chance to escape if she could shoot down the British scout planes. Note, neither sghips had radars at that time.
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(1 Reply)
:iconeltf177:
eltf177 Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2018
Very interesting design, never heard of this but I did know the Italians were helping the Russians...
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 20, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
More like aiding. Italy always could used foreign investments to enhance it's economy.
Reply
:iconuglygosling:
uglygosling Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018
I thought 'UP-41' at first, until I noticed the secondary turrets looked much too large if the main turrets' guns had been 16"/40.6cm.
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Look at the turrets!
Reply
:iconuglygosling:
uglygosling Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2018
I did :) I'll just have to wait until you finish this design. Fascinating, as always.
Reply
:iconjavifel:
javifel Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018
are mostly based in UP.41?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Nope
Reply
:iconrileyl1:
Rileyl1 Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2018
what program do you use to draw your line drawings?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Paint Tool SAI
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Great start! Is there a reason why the armoured belt doesn't cover the full citadel (I'm assuming the full citadel goes from B's barbette to Y's at the least)?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 22, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
You're the best!!
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Welcome!
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 23, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
shipcomrade.com/news/358/fr05t…

There's my proposal if you want to take a look at it. It's likely I will move Zara to T8 and slot in Bolzano at T7.
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Those sound like T3/4 premiums which I already have plenty of, but didn't have a clue that the Italian Navy looked at such funky designs. So many twin secondaries on the centerline!
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Italian idea for the Glorious/Courageous/Furious.
Japan has it's idea for those as well!
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:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
You might be right on the 55 calibre for the 250mm guns as Italy proposed another big gun cruiser to Romania (next to the UP-102) the UP-90 (which was later reworked into a light cruiser of 3x3 152mm guns) feutred 253mm/55 guns:
digilander.libero.it/planciaco…
digilander.libero.it/planciaco…
Wierd that they also carried 127mm guns which only appeared in the Cold war in the Italian Navy!

The Italian variant will have the guns in turret similar to the 280mm triple ones, 120mm twin turrets while the 100mm AA guns remaining as these were Italian (actually Austro-Hungarian) to begin with. 37mm and 20mm for light AA

Also what did you decided for the 3rd version?
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
For the 3rd version I went with:
3x3 254mm/55 guns
6x2 135mm/45 DP guns (the mounts that were meant to be designed for the Etnas and got stopped with the armistice)
6x2 90mm/50 DP guns
16x2 37mm/54 
12x2 20mm/65 Breda
2x1 20mm/65 Breda
2x3 533mm torpedoes
Long catapult +4 seaplanes

Which is how I would see these ships armed in 1945. What do you think?
Reply
:iconssmagus:
SSMagus Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2018
Do you have any data about those 254mm guns? Like the intended rate of fire, shell weight and muzzle velocity?
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
No, those weapons were never designed. They were just included in a couple of design proposals but afaik never had a detailed performance.
Reply
:iconssmagus:
SSMagus Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2018
Never even got to the stage of laying out basic requirements for what would be needed in the design, then? Oh well.

Though I suppose given the Italian preference for high muzzle velocity we can take a decent guess as to how these guns would've performed.
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I will see how much light AA I can squize on it but the space is limited
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 18, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Yup, I realize that the light AA is a bit of a funky thing to add as it's dependent on deck space after the rest, thought that was a good guideline though :) The 37mm, 90mm and 135mm guns should all be straight swaps from their soviet equivalents, right?

I have to say, the cruiser so far looks absolutely gorgeous!
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 19, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Also could not put them near the big guns because of the blast effect but the fully turreted ones solve this issue
Reply
:iconcommandershasofrosty:
CommanderShasOFroSty Featured By Owner Jan 19, 2018  Hobbyist Artist
Would light AA be able to fit on top of B and X turrets? The aftdeck should be a good place for AA guns right? The main turret is a whole deck higher so it should allow for more guns as the blast effect should be weaker I think
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 19, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
On the 2nd and 3rd turret a single twin 37mm or two twin 20mm are feasable though two twin 37mm twins are possible as well.
Also Italy designed a large stabilised octuple (actually quadruple-twin) 20mm AA turret:
stefsap.files.wordpress.com/20…
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(1 Reply)
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Because I've just copied the UP-102 hull and not yet edited that part.
The 45mm AA guns are in twin mounts in my opinion so I use the ones used on the Udarniy riverine monitor. Which is very similar to the armoured mounts of the Up-102's 40mm guns
Reply
:icongolgotha17:
Golgotha17 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2018
Oooh, is this the fabled italian cruiser design with 250mm guns? I like what I see.
Are you interpreting how the ship would have looked like, or did you find some drawings from way back?
Reply
:icontzoli:
Tzoli Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Apparently there are drawings of the hull only (No superstructure ones) so I'm using my own ideas
Reply
:iconeltf177:
eltf177 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2018
I like this...
Reply
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