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Pronouns I should use for Freek spitfiresonice.deviantart.com/… ? I have the ones I wanna use in mind already, just wanna hear opinions. Freek is agender/gender neutral. 

59%
32 deviants said it/it/its/itself (I feel like these fit Freek best out of any I can find, but apparently people think these are offensive. But well, if the character doesn't take offense to it (which Freek doesn't) then I don't see why this is a problem?)
22%
12 deviants said they/them/their/themself (I tried to use this too, but for some reason I can't get my mind to refer to Freek with these so I keep messing it up)
15%
8 deviants said he/him/his/himself (I used to use this, but... Freek is not a guy and I don't want people to assume this character is male).
4%
2 deviants said Other pronouns (thing is, I can't get my mind to use others for Freek either, it just doesn't feel right to me)

Devious Comments

:iconhawkieface:
Hawkieface Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Well here I was casually thinking he was male o-o
But it's up to you ^w^ if you think "it" works best, then use that c: it's not offensive unless the one being called "it" objects c:
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yep, that's why I don't want to use those pronouns any longer xD
And Freek does not object, so :dummy:
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:iconhawkieface:
Hawkieface Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Writer
Yee :dummy:
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
"It" is only offensive when used to refer to someone without permission to use it, so by all means go ahead if you feel that it fits best!

also sorry for making a mess of the comments, heh
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It's fine! I find it interesting to read these things, as I don't know everything about the gender spectrum yet, so it's interesting to read about other people's experiences. :)
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:icontremello:
Tremello Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
the comments on this poll burn me

if 'it' seems most appropriate and fitting, use 'it'. if freek wouldnt take offense to it, then its not offensive. ive met a number of actual people who asked for it/its/itself pronouns??? and they get people like THATS SO OFFENSIVE. like ok yeah in your opinion i guess and your opinion doesnt really matter here

plus it doesnt really matter what you end up using if you use something other than he or she someones gonna get pissy for one reason or another, so may as well go with your gut on it
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I can see what you mean there xD

Yea... it's one of those cases where it only matters what the person themselves think about it xD

And yus, I noticed. And he or she just won't do in this case, so... :P
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Personally i think that the pronoun would go with what physical biological gender the organism is, regardless of mind set, because i have a homosexual friend who refers to herself as "she, her, etc."
The reason i think this is because a stranger approaching will refer to them by what they see, and it would be foolish to get offended over that.

And i hope i'm not out of term using you and griwi as an example, you two are aware you are female and refer to eachother as such...

There ya go! ;)
So what ever freek is! :3
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Sexuality and gender identity are different things. Of course me and Griwi call each other females, the fact that we're attracted to females doesn't mean we are not female... :XD:

Freek has no sex, so. I still find "it" more fitting :3
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
i now agree! ;)
and "it" just sounds cuter... :p
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
You're referring to sex; gender is unrelated to that. And homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with what gender you are either.
Sex is what you are biologically, sexuality has to do with whom you're sexually attracted to, and gender has to do with how you feel, basically. For example, if your body was switched to that of another sex, you would (most likely) remain attracted to the same people you were attracted to before, and still maintain the mindset of your gender.
For example, I am agender but not sexless, and do not refer to myself with the pronouns that "match" my sex (unless required to in places where it would be unsafe to state otherwise.)
[just now noticed Logan responded, I'll continue however since I've been writing this for quite some time; I suppose this is in response to your reply to xem]
Although mistakes can be made, it's definitely much more respectful to use gender neutral pronouns until you're sure. I do agree that it's not something to get incredibly offended about if you're misgendered and should be politely corrected, but keep in mind that social dysphoria is terrible, and misgendering someone can cause a lot of identity confusion for a lot of people. I assure you that it can be incredibly harmful; I barely even believe myself to be the most dysphoric of people, and it can mess me up quite a bit. That's really the point here, giving everything a "that's just how it is" attitude can be harmful, and we're working to make it so that mistakes are minimum and thus less harmful. The world is far from perfect and never will be, but you have to actively work to make it the best it can be.
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
To save some typing, me reply to you is the same for logan, and you bring up a good point, i can understand how it would cause confusion.
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
By identity confusion, do you in fact know what I'm referring to? Correct me if I'm wrong for assuming you don't, but it isn't the same as simple confusion.
I already experience heavy derealization and dissociation; the feeling that you are not real, and feeling "spacey", for lack of a better word. This is without my gender dysphoria.
When being misgendered, people can experience this, as well as extreme anxiety (including possible panic attacks), depression, intense uncertainty about who they are, existential crises, body dysphoria (feeling they are in the wrong body), etc.
It can be incredibly unpleasant, although for most people it isn't incredibly severe in most cases, and some don't even experience it.
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
well, clearly you and i have had very different exposures to this topic, you first hand, and very sensitive, and i have only acted off of what i have seen and heard, i suppose the homosexual/gender fluid etc. that i have know are very casual about it.
so i am sorry if i have caused any discomfort, i was merely talking off of my personal experiences with the topic.
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you're saying exactly.
And yes, in casual conversation and such it can often be, of course, casual
It's a very complex topic and I suppose I shouldn't be speaking about this while I'm tired
And don't worry about it; I'm fine, and I understand
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:iconqueash:
Queash Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
The thing is: Physical Biological Sex (not gender! They are not the same thing!) is not a strict dictomathy, and as spitfiresonice has said, their character is Agender, meaning genderless in this case. If someone has no gender why would you use gendered pronouns for them, unless they prefer them for some reason?
Also did you mean to say homosexual friend there? Because sexuality and gender are not the same thing, and not related concepts, really.

Also, while I understand this is how most people do things and how we are taught, assuming someones gender purely on visual cues CAN be very offensive! While it will work out often enough, it's actually not difficult at all to use neutral pronouns if you are uncertain of someones gender (such as they/their/them) or even ASK what pronouns someone likes used for them!
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Very true!
And i missed the "agender" part above... :p oops.
And also with the "visual identification" i believe it should purely be seen as an inocent mistake if the person refers to you incorrectly, and should be corrected, then forgiven.

Our world dosn't need more foolish conflict over something as silly as calling a guy with long hair a "she" by accident (or visa versa)...

And i forgot to mention in my previous comment that if the person identifies as the opposite gender that they should be called by the pronouns they like. But again, correct and forgive, live and let live... :peace:
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:iconqueash:
Queash Featured By Owner May 12, 2014
Mmm while I can understand an innocent mistake and many people WILL forgive these things, you need to think of these in a greater context: you misgender someone one day, and it was not intentional or malicious, but it happened. And it hurts. This person is probably misgendered often, multiple times in the same day - they have difficulty knowing with bathroom to use, in part because of concern for their own safety. People likely intentionally misgender them as well, tell them they are NOt the gender they are, sa because they have x body part they MUST be this, insult their appearance, trans people risk VIOLENCE for being who we are, when people even let us exist.
No, one accidental misgendering may be an innocent mistake, but is CAN hurt and even be dangerous in the wider scope of things.

And no, we don't need the conflict, but why should someone have to be misgendered to avoid it? Why can't others just not assume gender, or ask, or use neutral pronouns if unsure?

And while that's a good stance, there's more than "two genders" so there isn't really an opposite gender. Everyone should be called by the pronouns they like, and that is that.
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:iconzombieraccoon5:
ZombieRaccoon5 Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
very true, i should've added to my original:
"everyone should be referred to as they wish"
:p i only took the original stance because the homosexuals i know personally refer to themselves as their "physical gender"
thank you for correcting me. :) (i'd hate to offend anyone... :/ )
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:iconqueash:
Queash Featured By Owner May 13, 2014
Yep, there ya go!
Though like, you say you don't want to offend anyone so, I'm gonna try and correct something you are saying one more uwu
Because are you meaning to say homosexuals there?? Someones sexual attraction is NOT the same as a gender identity. Are you trying to say Transgender people?
Similarly, don't say homosexuals. Say homosexual people or something, but even then it may be better just to say gay or something! Homosexual as a word can carry a negative connotation. And, don't say "physical gender". If you MUST, say "physical sex" but understand that phrase is still limited. using "Physical ender" implies sex and gender are the same thing though, which they are not. c:
Thank you for being open to being corrected though!
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:iconqueash:
Queash Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
It should be fine! It pronouns can be offensive to some people, especially trans people bUT if that's the pronoun that is most accuate and you don't meant it demeaningly there should be literally no problem?? I know some folks who prefer those pronouns, and it's not degrading to any of them, so there's no reason for there to be a fuss c:
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yea, I thought so too ^^ As long as the person themselves takes no offense to them (which this character doesn't) there is no problem I think.
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:iconqueash:
Queash Featured By Owner May 12, 2014
Yep, exactly!! c:
also semi apology for sort of making a mess in the comments here, huff huff
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 13, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Is fine! I find it interesting to read about these things :)
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:icontheghoulavenue:
TheGhoulAvenue Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Student Digital Artist
in other words, "it" sounds like its a soulless object while "they" would still seem like a living thing with a personality .o.
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
"It" is sometimes used for animals and as this character has little if any anthropomorphic traits, I don't feel like it's inappropriate :P
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:icontheghoulavenue:
TheGhoulAvenue Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Student Digital Artist
Yeah but it still has the "no character/personality" thing to it and makes them seem like less of a being :v I have two genderless cyclops cats and I rather call them 'they" x3
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I just don't feel that way x3
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:icontheghoulavenue:
TheGhoulAvenue Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Student Digital Artist
What kind of boring world would it be if we would all agree with eachother x3
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yep! :)
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:icontheghoulavenue:
TheGhoulAvenue Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Student Digital Artist
Also one little tip, the things you wrote after each vote thingy can influence the voting of people so instead of getting a clear voting they will just agree without exactly looking over it. I noticed that in other polls too, like I got a different voting result after I said a bit more to a vote 0: Just saying for future polls c:
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I see. I just wanted to add my opinion there xD
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(1 Reply)
:icontheghoulavenue:
TheGhoulAvenue Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Student Digital Artist
"It" always makes me think of objects and doesnt really seem personal for a character. But maybe thats because I learned that all objects are called it in english instead of the he/she/it we use over here :v
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I see x3
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:iconpoiarsken:
poIarsken Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
My gender-neutral friend uses they/them/themself. 
It's much less degrading than it/itself c:
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I see, but what if the person referred to with those pronouns does not find them degrading? :0
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:iconpoiarsken:
poIarsken Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Then I guess use them :^0
I just know all my gender-neutral friends dislike those pronouns?????????? I have like three genderfluid friends and only one of them identifies himself as "he" :') BUT I asked about the it pronouns and they were all like, "ew no" but idk how you feel about them uwu
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I feel different about them than your friends do xD And it'd only matter if the character took offense to them - which isn't the case here. It all depends on the person you're referring to.
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:iconpoiarsken:
poIarsken Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Then it's all up to you B^)))))))))))))))))))))))
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 12, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
:dummy:
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:iconskkon:
Skkon Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
I think it's only offensive if the subject of the pronouns isn't offended by it. Go for it. Heheheh. Go for it. Ha.
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:iconspitfiresonice:
SpitfiresOnIce Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It. I get it.
Even more it there. XD
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:iconskkon:
Skkon Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
BA DUM TSS
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:iconlunaclare:
LunaClare Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Just use his name. No offense but I hate when people refer to themselves as "it" or "they". It really gets on my nerves when people aren't honest about their gender/sex.

Regardless of someone's "gender" I'd refer to someone for their sex. However, if they ask me to refer to them as a she, I wouldn't mind as long as they were honest in the first place that they were male.

I don't know, this topic has caused a lot of problems for me.
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
I understand that you seem to have had bad experiences, but the thing is, this is quite unrelated. On the topic of keeping your sex private, it doesn't matter unless you plan on becoming physically intimate and care as to what their sex is. If that's the case, then yes, keeping you uninformed is generally pretty bad on their part. But otherwise, it can be a very private matter, and I don't see how there could be any harm being done to you for them not revealing the status of their genitals.

There is also nothing wrong with using it/they pronouns. I have a genderfluid friend who uses "they" pronouns. It was odd at first, of course, but you get used to them if you actually use them. "It" is less common, and I can understand how it might feel like you're dehumanizing them, but it's the same concept. Regardless, you should respect how someone identifies and if they ask you to refer to them with pronouns that don't "match" their sex, you use them. It really isn't that hard at all, so I don't see what the problem is.
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:iconlunaclare:
LunaClare Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yes, I've been saying that I don't mind referring to a male as a she, as long as they're honest about their sex in the first place. I like to make my friends comfortable so long as they care about my comfort. I'm not comfortable not even knowing someone's sex. It limits the amount I can trust them, because they limit the amount they can trust me. It just makes it difficult.

And why does love have anything to do with it? Why is it bad on their part to hide their sex when you're curious if there's potential you can have a relationship with them, but it's not bad when you just want to know so you can understand them better? I don't want to know so I can pry I want to know so I can understand what questions are okay to ask them and the best way to help them when they have a problem.

Why am I the asshole for wanting my friends to trust me? It just doesn't feel right that a friend on the internet couldn't meet me in person because they'd be trying to hide their gender for me. Friendship for me is more than just talking to someone on the internet.
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
Yes, I got that. I'm also referring to any pronouns, including those deemed gender-neutral, which you seemed to say you wouldn't use if they preferred them (correct me if I'm wrong)
And I suppose I can see what you're getting at, but it isn't a matter of trust in most cases. Although if you saw me or spoke to me, my sex is likely quite obvious, if I had a choice I would rather not speak of it. Not out of a matter of trust, but because I do not identify with it; it's not something I'm particularly happy about, and I don't like the possibility of causing someone to think of me as my sex, or influence their thoughts of me through that. Although I guess it can be argued that that would be trusting someone to identify you properly, it also has to do with not wanting to mention something I'd rather keep private, whether I trust you immensely or don't know you at all.

I said nothing to do with love. And if you want to know what questions are okay to ask, you can ask them. The only things I can think of that involve their sex are their experiences with bathrooms, whether or not they've experienced menstruation/other bodily functions relating to their genitals, their sex life, what undergarments/"passing" equipment(such as binders) they may or may not wear, and certain things that have happened while identifying with their sex that had to do with it. I've discussed things with members of the opposite sex- that mistook me for the same sex- about experiences specific to their sex, and didn't feel uncomfortable with the questions (although I do realize it differs from person to person, but if they're not okay with you asking certain questions, they should inform you of that, or you should ask them). They did later learn my sex through my friend, but it wouldn't have mattered.

Also, it's unlikely someone would hide their gender unless in a situation where it might be dangerous. Hiding their sex, however, when referring to meeting you in person (assuming their appearance is quite revealing of their sex) is a situation where you shouldn't care about their sex. They shouldn't feel obligated to tell you their sex but you should assure them that they shouldn't feel unable to tell you about it either. Caring about it makes it seem like it will affect your opinion on them, which can definitely scare people off. And friendship is much more than talking to someone on the internet for me as well, but if someone does not wish to reveal their sex that is their choice. Legitimately lying about it, as you were talking about earlier, would be wrong, yes, but you still have to realize their motives.

And I said nothing to do with being an asshole. You seem like you potentially are a decent enough person, but that is hardly what I am discussing with you.
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:iconlunaclare:
LunaClare Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
No, while I don't enjoy referring to people as "they" or "it" if I was asked to, I would, out of respect.

Well, I've done research on it. Being male or female affects the way you think. The biggest difference is that for most males, they only use one part of their brain and scan it from left to right. Females use both parts. At least, if I remember correctly. It also has to do with other things, like males being better at things like work while females are better with things like language.

Though, I could be completely wrong. Just from what I read in articles. Things like that. Though that's not particularly why I like to know someone's sex. I'd just be repeating myself if I told you again though.

I know you didn't call me an asshole I'm just tired of people getting the idea that I'm a bigot or something because I like to know people's sex. I'm just really tired of it. It's just a preference. Everyone has preferences. Some people hide their sex, some don't, some people like to know other's sex, others don't care. I'm not hurting anyone. But you know all of this already, you seem intelligent.

In the case where the person was lying to me about their sex, it was because they didn't trust me, at least, that's what I think. I thought that was a bad sign and decided to pursue it, so I really got on his ass about him being honest with me. In the end he ended up telling me he saw me more as an associate business partner or something than a friend. That's why I'm glad I got pissed at him about it. This is what I mean about bad experiences with people who hide their sex. I just feel like if they can't tell me something as factual as their SEX which is such a physical part of our lives, what else is wrong?

I just wish we could live in a world where people didn't have to worry about being judged. A world without lies. Or one where people could magically change their sex or something. None of this stupid nonsense would be necessary.
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:icontresvie:
tresvie Featured By Owner May 11, 2014
Well, I'm glad.

Yes, hormones, physical development, etc all influence certain qualities. However, it obviously affects everyone in different ways. Someone whose sex is female might be incredibly good with work (using your examples in assumption that they are correct) whereas someone who is male might excel with language. And although I'm not exactly the most informed about it, I'd assume there's many exceptions. It is, however, generally off-topic and neither of us here are very educated on it, so I won't go into that.

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with it, and I highly suggest you to be at least open to people who do not wish to reveal their sex, and keep an open mind if they do in fact lie about their sex. Although, as I said, it would be wrong on their part, and inexcusable, but listening to their side of the story and at least being understanding wouldn't do any harm. I get that it's your choice, but I'm just saying it's always good to consider. Personally, if required, I'd prefer to either lie about my sex (as a preference, although I likely wouldn't) or tell someone to take a wild guess and go with it, and that if it was incorrect I'd inform them eventually of my actual identity. But it isn't all that hard to figure out my sex anyways. And although I appreciate it, I wouldn't consider myself intelligent. I feel I am far from it.

Well, I'm sorry that happened to you. Just to clarify, he told you he was female? Regardless not every situation will be like that. I can't tell you his motives or whether or not he trusted you. No one will know for certain but even if it was a matter of trust, it isn't necessarily in every situation. There's always a handful of bad things that will happen between people and bad people that come and go. It can be related to other problems, yes, but you can't assume that everyone who prefers to keep their sex private or even lies about it is, in fact, untrusting of you. I would likely keep mine private were I to pursue a friendship with you, regardless of trust. You'd likely figure it out quite quickly, regardless, but if that weren't the case I would likely tell you once I felt as comfortable as possible; which is something that takes a long time and effort and is quite rare with me. It would be a matter of assuring myself of comfort, not involved with anything else. My apologies for inserting myself so much into examples, but I'm unsure how else to explain.

And yes, I would agree.
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:iconlunaclare:
LunaClare Featured By Owner May 11, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It's whatever, to be honest. Just bad experiences. Of course I'd give someone who doesn't want to tell me their sex a chance, it's just so foreboding for me nowadays. My original comment I just said I don't like it.
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