Most theropods probably had lips

1 min read
ScottHartman's avatar
By ScottHartman
44 Favourites
95 Comments
11K Views
This is just a quick journal entry to let all of you know I'm overhauling of my non-bird theropod skeletals, and a large part of it is to put more obvious (and IMO more accurate) lips on them. I've written up a (lengthy) blog post outlining the evidence that supports theropods lips here: www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/t…

I will do a second blog post in the next week or so on what correlates I'm using to guide the lip reconstructions. I also wanted to warn people that while I've updated around half of my theropod skeletals it will most likely be a few more weeks before I have those uploaded to DA, so in the meantime you are better off looking at the skeletal galleries on my website. I'll try to make time to get them here as soon as I can, but time will be tight for a while.

-Scott

Deinonychus head with lips by ScottHartman

Published:
© 2019 - 2020 ScottHartman
Comments85
anonymous's avatar
Join the community to add your comment. Already a deviant? Log In
dinoboi2001's avatar
dinoboi2001Hobbyist Traditional Artist

When will the second part come out?

numbat66's avatar
numbat66Hobbyist Digital Artist
hey scott Have always loved your work. I reference it a lot with my own art. Kindest regards Tony
Roninwolf1981's avatar
Roninwolf1981Hobbyist Traditional Artist
The question is...which ones didn't?
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist
That is an excellent question. The beaked ones for starters. And there's something weird going on with spinosaurids (at least at the front end of their jaws). 
mark0731's avatar
What about dilophosaurs and ceratosaurs? They have pretty long teeth.
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist

It's easy to get the teeth into lips in ceratosaurs and dilophosaurs, but I do wonder what is going on with the kinked premaxillae.

mark0731's avatar
Well, we agree to disagree on this one.
TheUltraCube6723's avatar
TheUltraCube6723Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not everyone. I for instance think they had lips
mark0731's avatar
By "we", I meant me and him.
Beto1207's avatar
I agree. Bye bye JP T. Rex smile.
Do you think they could also have a coating that hides their teeth like snakes and lizards?
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist
It's not all lizards, though it certainly is in snakes. I tend to think not, but until we really have a grip on what snake and monitor oral tissues are doing it's impossible to be certain.
Beto1207's avatar
ok. Thanks.
SyconSenti's avatar
Just curious, How would you restore Spinosaurids, which have crocodile like skulls and teeth. Lips or no?
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist
Spinosaurids are really interesting, and I haven't made up my mind 100% on them. They do show some evidence of losing (or at least reducing) lips. I believe Greg Paul has restored them as having no lips up front but lips down most of the rest of the tooth row, which is interesting to say the least.
Ornithopsis's avatar
OrnithopsisHobbyist Traditional Artist
What evidence do that have of losing lips, if I may ask? To me, spinosaurid skulls don’t look dramatically different from other theropod skulls in terms of lip correlates such as foramina and rugosity.
Hyrotrioskjan's avatar
HyrotrioskjanProfessional General Artist
I tend to go with exposed premaxilla es well... but yeah, whatever they did, it wasn't the usual theropod apporach. 
SyconSenti's avatar
I've seen that reconstruction too. Spinosaurus continues to be an oddball dinosaur, but that's what makes it so great.
carcharsauce's avatar
carcharsauceHobbyist Traditional Artist
Using the extant phylogenetic bracket method, theropods should not have 'lips'. Going with a conservative approach, there is no extant archosaur that is observed to have these structures therefore we can safely assume that no theropod has lips.
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist
You are 100% right that going by the "conservative EPB approach" they should not have lips. But EPB isn't evidence, it's just a guide to where the burden of evidence lies, and it turns out there's a fuckload of evidence for lips.
SpinoInWonderland's avatar
Scott Hartman addresses this very concern in his post, that's not the conservative or a safe approach at all as the known osteological correlates mismatch quite a bit. The condition in both living birds and crocodylians are clearly derived - not all dinosaurs were beaked and basal stem-crocodylians such as Smok or Postosuchus do possess oral osteological correlates more in common with lipped sauropsids than unlipped ones. Application of a pure EPB method regarding archosaur oral tissues flies in the face of the known fossil data already available.

Plus you also have to consider what this does to non-theropod dinosaurs - some dinosaurs like Brachiosaurus won't be able to eat properly and let's not even get started on those ornithischians...
Pendragon276's avatar
Out of curiosity are those correlates for oral tissue coverage in stem crocs that their premaxillary/maxillary area are less rugose than living crocodillians? kind of out of my depth with the subject
SpinoInWonderland's avatar
Basically, the traits Scott Hartman covers in his post that suggests lips for theropods also apply to basal stem-crocs.
ScottHartman's avatar
ScottHartmanProfessional Digital Artist
Well said. Also, man this journal entry blew up since I posted it.
SpinoInWonderland's avatar
I guess that's what happens when you openly discuss about certain controversial topics in dinosaur palaeobiology.
anonymous's avatar
Join the community to add your comment. Already a deviant? Log In