Of my Mother in Heaven (Religious Arguement)

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Mikenestin's avatar
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Just to clarify my Mother is not, at this moment in time, dead. Nor am I some zealot who believes he has a celestial entity posing as a matriarchal figure - however cool that might be.

Before I begin, some music - www.radioblogclub.com/open/960…
I'm quite into melodramatic French things. Especially if they have breasts.

However, an interesting point was raised while we prepared dinner together in a scene of domestic bliss. Which, of course, led us to talk about the existence of God being worthy of worship in the Judaeo-Christian context, the argument (as the pasta simmered) revolved around the concept of the 'Inconsistent Triad' a device of logic that argues that God is not worthy of worship for he allows suffering/evil in the world.

1. If he really was all-loving, he is not all powerful as he cannot prevent the innocent suffering (therefore is he truly worthy of human worship?).
2. If he was all powerful, he must be evil to allow the innocent to suffer (Should humans worship something that is evil?).
3. If he is all-powerful and all-loving (as Judaeo-Christian theology states), then why is there suffering/evil?

Irenaeus' (French fella, beard) opposition is that those who suffer are compensated in Paradise. This notion led to, of course, a discussion of what exactly paradise was.

I gave the definition of 'A place in which one is content and happy.' Which is true, to a degree; when you lay on the tropical beach - what's the first thing you say?

Mother rejected this saying that Paradise must be very boring then, for humans only achieve contentment for having strived against hardship to obtain happiness, and therefore a place where these are eternal givens was self-contradictory. This was probably why Eve ate the Fruit of Knowledge and forced humanity to leave Eden - pure bordom. In the real world outside of the contrived paradise of Eden man bloomed and found true contentment through overcoming hardship.

Well, then my response was that her Paradise would be a place in which she would be given challenges so she might feel satisfaction from overcoming them.

That would make Heaven, my dear (she replied), a false world much like the matrix; where we would be given fabricated challenges with no purpose.

Fine! Fine! (I call over my shoulder while slicing the broccoli ;) Heaven is therefore a place in which challenges have actual consequences if one failed to overcome obstacles.

Then (, she looks up at me and winks,) what is the difference between Heaven and Real-Life? I've had challenges in my life but I've won-through and here I am; happy and contented with how I am.   - "

Therefore, I present the notion to you that my mother found Nirvana while making Macaroni-Cheese on a gloomy Monday evening. I feel a little jealous but I guess the lesson is we all must face up to what life gives us and struggle through as no God is going to come down and save us... as he obviously cannot, or enjoys watching our pains.

Enjoy your Heaven Mother, until the next set of challenges.  

Post Scriptum
Yes, it was my Seventeenth Birthday last weekend. I'm glad you remembered. ;D I'm not a huge fan of people so kept it small, eating Chinese and playing Tekken. I've started my Driving Lessons - a sensation that I find very natural and I think learning to drive and taking my tests may be very enjoyable.

Best of luck everyone, please find inner-peace too!
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crazy-coconut's avatar
I wish I could favourite journal articles.
Mikenestin's avatar
Copy and Paste, my dear, copy and paste. Don't you know - immitation is the highest form of flattery.

You have an amazing gallery, by the way.
Mikenestin's avatar
Don't mention it.
Calabim's avatar
Here's my own (likely heretical) view. I believe that all people who think struggle with spirituality and religion, as I think they should. After all faith that is not challenged is not truly faith. I always thought of heaven as a place of reconciliation with oneself, God, and the Universe. Peace and bliss can only be attained when one realizes that we are part of a greater whole. Death is a return to that whole. The physical returns to the earth from whence it came, and the spirit is returned to "Heaven," to be one with God. Or not. Either way, it'll be interesting to find out.

I wish more people could talk respectfully about religion with one another, the world would be much better off.
elementc's avatar
Whenever we have dinner with our grandparents we almost always have a religious debate. This year religious discussion was banned during Easter dinner but that didn't stop us from discussing it at least a little bit. Now... the day before was my other grandma's birthday and involved many bizarre topics including, but not limited to, does the human heart look anything like the generic Valentine's "heart shape"?

(The "Inconsistent Triad" was used as well although I've never heard it named before. We didn't talk about heaven at all. Personally I'd rather be here and living than in some static eternal "happy place".)
Mikenestin's avatar
The human heart only looks like that if ripped out by an amputee surgeon...
My arguement is that paradise would be a place where you would be happy, therefore you would not feel bordom or malcontent in being there - as it would contain what you needed to be happy.
elementc's avatar
Heaven has violent videogames with ever increasing levels of realism?! What about youtube and somethingawful?! :D :D
Mikenestin's avatar
That's just the think see - the challenges we are presented with are so complex and interwoven that we can neither fully comprehend nor anticipate them.
elementc's avatar
Oh, almost forgot.... speaking of melodramatic French things in general Yann Tiersen is awesome. I noticed you have him in your playlist.
Foxfairy24's avatar
My brain is rotting so obviously you'd be able to completely quash any arguement that I even chanced to throw at you.

But maracroni and cheese with broccoli. It's magic.
Mikenestin's avatar
What would you have? Truely an english dish: two things of three are boiled.
Foxfairy24's avatar
I see the dish as more American. Lots of cheese and pasta.
I would have argued that Heaven is a place where perpetual contentment of a different sort than human contentment exists. Instead of needing to strive to reach a position of happiness, nothing would be needed to attain it- sort of a passive place, really, but by defenition a paradise. None of the demons that taunt people on Earth would be in the "Heaven", anyway.

The very reason that people are taunted on earth is because they seek to attain happiness, but never seem to take the right path to find it. Instead they resort to something like money to "buy" themselves happiness, generating many (if not all) the problems that we see in society today (Thomas Aquinas, mah homeboy!). "God", in my view, is that sort of weird way in which happiness can be attained here on earth and maybe even carried over into "heaven". Unity, calm, serenity, a reason,all that good stuff that we're lookin' for can be found with God. God is not necessarily a supreme single being, but maybe something similar to a certain state of existence that brings resonating harmony into life and beyond. So maybe there isn't so much of a point of worshipping a deity, but trying to make a deeper, personal connection and tap into that state so as to better yourself.
Mikenestin's avatar
Technically it's Italian - but that would be opening up a whole new level of worms.

If contentment there is other than Human contentment, how are we as humans meant to appreciate it.

Your ideas of God and Heaven are uncannily similar to Plato's Form of the Good. In which there is a ‘form’ outside of the empirical world that is absolute good and from which all goodness is inspired from. Therefore you suggest we should leave Christian understanding of God and instead follow the path of enlightenment advocated by Plato and his followers.
This is entirely logical as the entirety of the New Testament is taking the pre-existing Jewish idea of a tribalistic God and giving in the attributes and qualities of Plato's Form of the Good (which was re-discovered around that time). Christianity is fantastic, but you must realise that the key principals are just corruptions of Plato and Aristotle.
Foxfairy24's avatar
x3 Well now, I don't know how I could argue that advocacy without getting my hands on Plato first.

One of those big, expansive ideas about Heaven is that by getting there, a person transcends humanity via the eternal soul- the human shell with all its desires is merely a husk vacated at death. The contentment of Heaven is therefore not a human contentment, and impossible to attain during the human lifetime, though it is a goal that the soul must be worked towards if it is prepared to reach the state of contentment before being released from its carnal home. It doesn't advocate suicide- experiences in life and reasoning bring the human soul closer to the Nirvana, the "Great Good" as esteemed and wise Plato apparently puts it.

I have absolutely no idea what I'm typing about.
Mikenestin's avatar
It advocates suicide. Or, at the very least means that human's live to die - and all human endevor other than non-descript 'experience' is futile.
Perhaps I'm little cynical - but I'd like to believe in a more realist, humanist cause - in which our societies and machinations mean more than credit in heaven.
Foxfairy24's avatar
I had something typed up, but the wonderful dA decided that it had to spazz and delete what I had written. There's a human contentment and a spiritual contentment, and people strive towards both in their lives- seeking human contentment in the physical realm, but also reaching out into the spiritual and searching there, too. Humans can appreciate full physical contentment, triumph and happiness, in life, but there's a different type that we can comprehend but not experience that perhaps we understand after death. I guess people get there after all that soul-searching and considering that we tend to do during life, finally arriving at some conclusion that gives them peace in the now, but greater in the hereafter... But it's what humans learn in life that gives us the lessons to understand and work out exactly how everything is, and reach that spritiual bliss after being released from life's boundaries.

In terms of working out being good to each other during life- there's really no way that calm can be justified if it's based on hurting and disrespecting others. Even if through a lifestyle of self-indulgence at the expense of others a person can gain a high level of physical contentment, there's little way that the person can have a mind that rests easily or bring him/herself to a point where they can easily justify hurting others. Bringing about an artificial conclusion about denying compassion creates an instability in the soul, making it difficult to reach that state of spiritual "heaven".

And here I lost my train of incoherent thought.
Mikenestin's avatar
If we take what you have said to be true - then why is an arbitary God figure nessacary in the majority of world religions?
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Mikenestin's avatar
It advocates suicide. Or, at the very least means that human's live to die - and all human endevor other than non-descript 'experience' is futile.
Perhaps I'm little cynical - but I'd like to believe in a more realist, humanist cause - in which our societies and machinations mean more than credit in heaven.
Engel08's avatar
yeah I think the same thing. Although I can't believe you discussed semantics and "The big question" Over dinner!.
There is actually a name of the arguement but I forget what it is.

Awesome music btw.
Mikenestin's avatar
I thought the' big question' was: "Will you Marry Me?" Raised in a very humanist house-hold the idea of questioning establishes theological principals is common place.

Our conversation was quite board, starting with "the Problem of Evil and Suffering" (the technical term) and moving on through Teleological and Ontological Arguements.

It is very awesome, I am aware. ;p
TheGlome's avatar
Also, what are you 'yearning' for?
TheGlome's avatar
I thought we already discussed this!
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