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MartinSilvertant's avatar

Hagel Slab v21

Hagel Slab Regular (v.21)
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The modern construction of Hagel is suitable to turn into a more monilinear face; a slab serif with elegance.
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© 2012 - 2021 MartinSilvertant
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NamesAndSuch's avatar
There she is again :-)
MartinSilvertant's avatar
I was going to ask "who?" but then I had a look at the picture and realized you were referring to "LA".

By the way, here you can see that my L is quite condensed. It's not overdone though as that would make the letter obtrusive. It just compensates for a little bit of space. Since you seem to identify with letters in a different way than would be considered normal, I'm very curious how you perceive this "LA", and the typeface in general.
NamesAndSuch's avatar
Frankly this is not a very attractive La, but in general I used to love them enough to consider myself married to them.... La's are very beautiful, as are Del's, Ren's, Rel's, Den's, June's, Jul's and many others.
MartinSilvertant's avatar
Is there a specific typeface you would like to see those words/names in? In your gallery I saw quite a lot of minimalist designs, but also some Renaissance typefaces. So I guess it's not specifically minimalism or elegance or whatever which triggers you, is it? I would be really curious what kind of typeface I would come up with if I were to design a typeface exactly according to your taste.

By the way, the reason why I feel meeting you has made such impact is because you're the first person I meet who can relate with letters to such extent. I can't say I completely know what you're talking about, and yet I know what you're talking about. My interests are very specific and so it tends to have an alienating effect because no one else around me shares these interests. You see something in letters most people don't, but I want them to. I want them to appreciate letters and recognize quality.
NamesAndSuch's avatar
I challenge you to improve upon my wife Julienne (the font I sent you the link to), but I don't think anybody can (I know you don't like this style of fonts, but I don't think she could be ANY BETTER). Still I challenge you. History of full of people who did what others thought was "impossible".
MartinSilvertant's avatar
You sent a link to a folder which includes several fonts, not one. It's actually a bit funny you challenge me to improve on the design which you would consider perfect, and yet you didn't notice that your wife actually consists of 3 ladies. I suppose that's an argument for the notion that indeed the design could be improved on.

Anyway, I really would love to take you up on a challenge, but I just don't have any interest in Century Gothic and Futura to the extent I want to design a typeface in the style. I must tell you though, it's the easiest style of typeface to do. Most amateur type designers start with such a design. Most of them don't pull it off though. Type design is still difficult to master regardless of the style.

I do have one geometric typeface in my gallery, which is Celcius. It's a different kind of geometric style though; much less minimalist. It's more akin to a typeface like DIN or Eurostile, while your woman is rooted in early 19th century typography and the Bauhaus and De Stijl movements. Here are a lot of geometric typefaces including plenty like Futura and Century Gothic: [link]
NamesAndSuch's avatar
I agree. I don't have the "eye" to narrow this down like you do. Maybe I love them all.

The computer keyboard shown is the official her though.
brianskywalker's avatar
Sorry about not commenting on any of this—I've been procrastinating! I like the q, but I would consider softening it just tad. Just make it cut near the tip to make it sturdier.

When I first saw you were doing a slab companion for Hagel I immediately thought it was an excellent idea. Hagel's forms naturally lend themselves to a slab style, and their is a certain relaxing quality to it. Together, they'll definitely have a very interesting tension.

On thing though: if you ever decide to make a sans, try to distance it's appearance as much as possible from the slab. Although that's really not necessary—there are lots of sans types that would make an excellent companion for Hagel. In fact Celsius could work in certain cases.
MartinSilvertant's avatar
Yeah I thought the same.

Do you think it's good to keep some contrast in the slab (like in 'e') or make it more monolinear? I want this slab to still have a bit of an elegant look; there are already plenty of sturdy modern slab typefaces.

> On thing though: if you ever decide to make a sans, try to distance it's appearance as much as possible from the slab.
Why would you make it different from the slab? And how different? Perhaps just make it more monolinear and of course remove the serifs. I will probably also go for more open counters but other than that I think the structure will remain quite the same.

One more question. To create Hagel Slab I only increased the weight of the thin strokes, which makes Hagel Slab Regular look heavier than Hagel Serif. Should I compensate for that weight increase in Slab or is it good that the slab is a tad heavier?
brianskywalker's avatar
> Why would you make it different from the slab?

Well, a lot of slabs end up looking like the sans with serifs added. Honestly I think the horizontal proportions need to change quite a bit to make a sans really work for the rigors of scalable design. Also, as I'm sure you know, compared to serif fonts, sans fonts tend to be more difficult to space.

> Should I compensate for that weight increase in Slab or is it good that the slab is a tad heavier?

It could depend on who you ask. The slab is a little dark, although that could prove to be useful when setting text reversed. I think it would still probably benefit from being a hair lighter.
MartinSilvertant's avatar
> Honestly I think the horizontal proportions need to change quite a bit
> to make a sans really work for the rigors of scalable design
I will take your word for it. So far I've only made sans from serif; I never made a sans from a slab. I don't know if that really makes a difference though as the sans typefaces I derived from serif typefaces also remain the same structure. Some of my serifs are particularly made to be useful as book typefaces as well but this is a criterium I haven't applied to the sans typefaces. In other words, with sans I haven't worried myself as much with the rigors of scalable design. Of course I've always adjusted the serif-derived sans typefaces enough to make them work in my humble opinion, but I will just have to see how much adjusting needs to be done once I remove the slabs. In any case, I'm quite convinced removing the serifs from a slab typeface won't make a perfect sans.

> It could depend on who you ask. The slab is a little dark,
> although that could prove to be useful when setting text reversed
What's reversed text setting? In any case, I think the basic weight for a serif typeface should be just about "book" while the slab serif in my opinion can be a bit darker as I would be more eager to use this for display. Also, I want most of my typefaces to have a weight range of 7 fonts so that just might be enough, though I'm still a bit worried I end up having to add an in-between weight because the Regular is too dark and the Light is too light for text setting. That's why I asked your opinion. Long story aside, I think I'm going to make it a bit lighter. Of course I wouldn't have asked you if I didn't think the dark weight was a bit of a concern.
brianskywalker's avatar
No, it shouldn't make a difference whether you start with a serif or slab when you make a sans. But a sans will need more modification to work than a slab derived from a serif. When the contrast is reduced to make a slab, the counters shrink roughly the same amount across all glyphs, so modification could then be kept to a minimum, in most cases. But with a sans, with the counters on n,m,h,u actually get larger, because the slabs are removed, while the counter of o gets smaller. So either the straight-sided letters need to be slightly condensed or the round-sided glyphs need to be slightly extended.

> What's reversed text setting?

The reverse of black on white. (White on black.) It's maybe a bit of a traditional term.
MartinSilvertant's avatar
Ahh thanks for the clarification. Of course I try to balance out the black and white space in all characters accordingly either way but it's good to have this "rule" in my head because I never thought about it so directly. I must say though I often like a bit of tension in the white space in different characters, such as the Humanist typefaces with some "absurdly" wide capital letters or the condensed italic 'A'. While it's often nice to create such a tension within a font though, it's probably not a good idea to create such a tension between several fonts. Someone with an experienced eye would see that the serif-derived sans is less balanced as part of a flawed design process rather than a conscious choice.
brianskywalker's avatar
No prob. :) The Humanists didn't think of type in the way we do today, but had a different rationalization for their proportions.

While it's often nice to create such a tension within a font though, it's probably not a good idea to create such a tension between several fonts. Someone with an experienced eye would see that the serif-derived sans is less balanced as part of a flawed design process rather than a conscious choice.

Right. The idea is to make such decisions consciously and not as an incident of process. I'm not sure how Martin Majoor handled things in Scala, but I've heard of quite a few people talk of how balanced Scala Sans is. Majoor had published diagrams showing a shared heartline between the sans and serif. It would be my guess that he actually varied things more than the diagram would lead one to believe. Perhaps I'll have to take a closer look or email him and find out.
MartinSilvertant's avatar
> The Humanists didn't think of type in the way we do today,
> but had a different rationalization for their proportions.
I know, but as flawed as the humanist method may be for legibility it's still fun to adapt some of its features once in a while. I just don't always see where it's best applied but that's why I do experiments. I think my preference to older type styles still shows in a lot of my work though. I never did a linear grotesque like DIN (Celcius comes close but it's way less mechanical than DIN and Eurostile) or a geometric typeface. I really like to work with the principles of chirography.
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