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Romania Maxima by LoreC10 Romania Maxima by LoreC10
This is an alternate history scenario in which most of the territory of Western Roman Empire and some parts of the East were places which developed a Romance language. Compared to our timeline Greece and the little parts of the Middle East were latinized. The resistance of latin languages was mainly due to better demography (with better harvests all along third and fourth century) thus improving the capacity of absorbing new peoples.
In the Iberian peninsula of this timeline there wouldn’t be any recoquista because there wouldn’t be any conquest of Al-Anadalus in the first place, thus languages in the south were kept unchanged .

Below some samples of how “she always close the window before dinner” would be like in the central dialect of all the groups:

Ibero-romance group: 

Hispano-iberian: (Ela) sempre cerra la bentana antes de chenar (Madrid dialect, used as basis for Spanish: (Ela) sempre cerra la ventana antes de cenar)
Lusitan: (Ea) sẽbre fecla ia jãnea ãche de chẽnar
Galician: (Ela) fecha sempre a janela antes de cear.
Asturiano-leonese: (Ella) pieslla siempres la ventana enantes de cenar.
Castillan: (Ella) siempre cierra la ventana antes de cenar.
Aragonese: (Ella) zarra siempre a finestra antes de cenar.

Gallo-romance group:
Catalan: (Ella) sempre tanca/clou la finestra abans de sopar.
Occitan: (Ela) barra/tanca sempre/totjorn la fenèstra abans de sopar.
Langues d’Oïl: Elle ferme toujours la fenêtre avant de dîner/souper.
Brithenig: Ell glo tyzur lla fenet awant manggè/cenè/sypè/lla guen/lla syp
Belgian: Ele zere tüji li viniesse davant di söper
Arpitan: (Le) sarre toltin/tojor la fenétra avan de goutâ/dinar/sopar.
Provençal: (Sa) claure sempre la fenestro proma de soupar.

[transition with Italo-romance]
Gallo-Italian: (Lee) la sara sù semper la finestra primma de disnà/scenà (Eastern Lombard)
Venetian: Eła ła sara/sera sempre ła fenestra vanti de xenàr/disnar.

Italo-romance group:
     
Tuscan: (Ella/Lei) la ‘hiude sempre la finestra avanti di cenà /tschenà/
Median: (Ella) cchiude sembre a fenesdra primma de cenà. /tschenà/ (I tried to write in Romanesco)
Neapolitan: Essa ‘nzerra sempe ‘a fenesta primma ‘e cenà. /tschenà/
Sicilian: Iḍḍa chiui sempri la finesṭṛa anti ca pistìa/mancia.
Corsican: Ella chjode/chjude sempre u purtellu nanzu di cenà. /tschenà/ (northern) 
              Edda/Idda sarra sempri u purteddu nanzu/prima di cinà. /tschenà/ (southern)
Istriot: le a(l) chjudo senpro la fenestra avanti de cenà. /tschenà/

[transition with Balkano-romance ——> Moesian]
Dalmatian: (Jala) serua siampro la finiastra prein de caina.

Rhaeto-romance group:

Western Rhaetic: Ella clauda/serra/ferma adina la fanestra avant ch’ella tschainia.
Eastern Rhaetic: Eila cloda/serra atutdin la finestra avant ch’ella tschena 
Ladin: (Ëra) stlüj dagnora la finestra impröma de cenè.
Friulan: (Jê) e siere simpri il barcon prin di cenâ.

[transition with Balkano-romance]
High Pannonian: Eija sera intutdi la firestra inavant de tschenâ.
Low Pannonian: Eja sira intotdiu la ferestra inant de tschenâ.

Balkano-romance group:

[Dalmatian——>] Moesian: Ela înclaude întutdiuna a firiastra înante de a caina.
Daco-romanian: Ea închide întotdeauna a fereastra înainte de a cina/u dejeun. (thanks to constant contact with the west, Daco-romanian has dropped all declension system)
Thracian: Ea înclide înpandiuno a faraitra înante de o dejoin.

Isolated [sometimes included in balkano-romance thought only for geographical reasons]
Albanian: Aja injithome insamliat dritae anpar de djarker 

Greco-romance group 
[sometimes together with Balkano-Romance, sometimes with Levantino-romace]:

Macedonian: Elta cleide pandie la faratyra prin de lo deoino.
Elleno-romance: Eta kleine pandeon ta paratrya prin de to deino.
Northern Anatolian: Elta kledeih inpandiu ta panacerya inante de deinar. (Constantinople dialect: Elta kludeih intutdiu ta fanasterya/panacerya inante de dejinar.)
Southern Anatolian: Etea kledeh inpandeh ta pancerya inpran de deinakhr.

Levantino-romance group: 

[transition with Greco-romance]
Cypriot: Alea glaudiach pandiam ta pancirya inpren de dgeinacr.

Levantino-Giudaic: Ala glaudliach andyaam ta shibatrya inblen de ta dgeina. 
Egypto-levantine: Alla glodliach adyim ta sibitrya inblin de ta dgina.

Southern-romance group (sometimes divided in Afro-romance group and Sardinian group)

Sardinian: Issa serrat semp(i)ri sa bentana in antis de cenai.

Numidian: Issah szerrat sembiri sza bentaha in antas di cenii. /tschenii/
Maurekhean: Isah szarhat sembri sza bentah en antah dgi cenii. /tschenii/
Tinkhitan: Ejah szierhat siembri sza bentan anteh dge cenià. /tschenià/

[transition with Ibero-romance]
Vandalerian: Ela sembri cierat sa bentan ante de cena /tschenà/

edit: increased Pannonian , modified Gallo-romance languages borders and rename Syro-levantine and Armorican (more updates to come).
       
edit 2: fixed Iberian peninsula and took other minor border changes.

edit 3: completed Britain, thanks to Tonio103 for the many suggestions
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:iconantoniofl:
AntonioFL Featured By Owner Edited Aug 6, 2018  New Deviant
 🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 To my beloved Lusitania and for his province of Galicia you are one with Portugal. ✌️
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2018
This is alternate history eh, nothing political...
Reply
:iconhori873:
hori873 Featured By Owner Edited Jan 6, 2018
Just one thought here:

The Dacians (aka Getae) were just a group of Thracians. It's true, they were distinct from the other Thracians, had some customs of their own, traditions, a different religion (same Gods, but the dacians worshiped only one of them and had other religious beliefs compared to their brothers), and some other minor differences.

Most importantly: They spoke the same language! That is mentioned in historical sources, everyone in the ancient world recognised that the whole Thracian family (thracians, dacians, gaetae, other tribes - there are dozens) spoke the same language. There are some differences, it's true, especially in toponyms: Dacians prefered the word "dava" which meant "fortified settlement" and used it as a suffix in most of their settlement names, while the Thracians used "bria" (meaning city, and was used kinda like "polis" in greek), "para", "dina" and some variations of those - again those are just "preferences" and are not exclusive, sometimes they used each other's "convention" but rarely.

My point: IF the region was held by the Roman Empire, and somehow the slavs wouldn't have taken over Thrace and Moesia (like they did in our timeline, basically replacing the thracian language with bulgarian completely) then I'm pretty sure the region would spreak only one language, thraco-romanian. There's no reason why the thracian language would, after latinisation, split in two different branches considering they are part of the same realm.

If they were different realms/countries, then they would, in time, develop differences between each other, including linguistic differences. And the linguistic samples you suggested in the description are actually really good examples of how that language may diverge.
Historically, the dacians were much more united, mostly under a decentralised kingdom (tribal confederation) - many suggest it was a theocracy, but evidence shows a dual rulership of the kind and the high priest holding seemingly equal power (tho we know nothing for sure).
Thracians, on the other hand, were much more... "individualistic"? They often faced power struggles and different tribes fought for control of the land. They just weren't as united as the dacians. The dacians were just the same at first - they are also thracians after all - but some really ambitious men united the tribes by word and by force and put them in line. Even tho we are not sure how long this lasted, we do know that they were united also in the 1st and 2nd century AD, after which they were defeated by the romans, and the lands that were not integrated into the Empire, weren't able to gather enough power to form another (smaller) kingdom.

This would lead me to believe that in your alternate scenario, if the thracians still held their "regional" identities over the "national" ones, they would probably not be organised in one single united realm, but in many smaller ones. Which leads me to believe each of those might diverge on its own way, forming a bunch of different, although very simmilar, new languages. (Probably just like we have istro-romanian, megleno-romanian, macedo-romanian in our own world today)

Also, I'm not going to comment about Albanian. Many people think that romanian and albanian both come from the same language, but just the same, many reject this idea. Either way, even in this alternate scenario, in that region we'd still see a language that's neither thraco-romanian or daco-romanian, even if it's related or not - just the way it happened IRL.

Anyway - great job! I really like this.
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2018
Ah! I see, very interesting informations, thank you for sharing those things with me!

I see your point, what I feel to respond is that this common thraco-dacian heritage could actually still be recognized by the fact that both Thracian and Daco-romanian are part of the same group and infant they keep many common features.
As for the differentiation, well I understand that the two groups spoke arguably the same language but I believe that the difference in culture could actually be reflected on the evolution of their romance language, also, the Thracian language would also be very influenced by greek and graeco-romance languages so this factor should also be kept into account 

Albanian in this TL is actually a sort of creole between Latin and proper Albanian, it is hardly recognizable as a romance language although grammatical structure were changed in a much deeper way than in OTL so little doubts could be advanced on it being part of the neo-latin languages.

Thank you so much! ^^ 
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:iconhori873:
hori873 Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2018
Oh, I see. And yes, thracians proper would indeed be influenced a lot by greeks (as they were also in our timeline, although they didn't last for long). And after giving it more thought, even if the Empire survived for a looong time (with all those regions in it), Thrace and Dacia would still be considered different provinces, which would result in a "provincial" culture for each of them (with the southern one being able to continue its relationships with the greek culture).

I'm quite fascinated about the ancient cultures, especially the extinct ones (like Thracian - and for the most part also it's subpart Dacian, as there are incredibly few elements of it still surviving today, as an effect of heavy romanisation), and I find this alternate timeline really exciting!
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Jan 8, 2018
yes, exactly.

Me too! I believe that it would have been very interesting if the communities of Romania Submersa could keep their languages. ^^
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:iconalbanta77:
albanta77 Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017
In Galician, xanela/fiestra, non ``janela´´
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 18, 2017
Yes, this is a modified version of the language, Galician in this timeline keeps more Portuguese sounds ^^
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:iconalbanta77:
albanta77 Featured By Owner Dec 22, 2017
 A very interesting alt map and timeline. Noraboa
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 22, 2017
Thank you so much!
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:iconiasonkeltenkreuzler:
IasonKeltenkreuzler Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017  Hobbyist Artist
Sehr sehr sehr sexuell, da wird der Sack ganz fluffig :3
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Edited Dec 17, 2017
Of course, I was thinking the same :XD:
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:iconiasonkeltenkreuzler:
IasonKeltenkreuzler Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017  Hobbyist Artist
hmmmmm ^^
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017
dude I didn’t understand a word :XD:
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:iconiasonkeltenkreuzler:
IasonKeltenkreuzler Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017  Hobbyist Artist
Google Translator is your friend :D
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 18, 2017
meh, does it even worth the effort? XD
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:iconiasonkeltenkreuzler:
IasonKeltenkreuzler Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2017  Hobbyist Artist
Yes, of course, after this, your soul will be swimming in warm Angel tears und you feel like a new born. ^^
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 25, 2017
Lol k XD
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:iconillouminous:
Illouminous Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2017
So what group are dalmatian and moesian in? 
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2017
Even if the morphology of the two languages leaves no doubts that Dalmatian is part of Italo-dalmatian languages while Moesian is part of Balkano-romance group, the two languages are both transitional to the other’s group and relatively close one another (this is valid for every language in the western romance continuum in truth, every dialect of every single village from Sicily to Calais to Algrave is similar to that of every villages around it, basically in this TL this assumption was exported to all romance speaking Europe).
Also, Dalmatian, although part of Italo romance group is a little bit different compared to the peninsular languages. :)
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:iconillouminous:
Illouminous Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2017
Yeah I know what a dialect continuum is ^^ I was just wondering because the way you featured them in both groups confused me a little :) thanks for the explanation! I think the spanish languages look better this way. Though I think I saw a suggestion to make the southern dialect part of the north african group, how would that work?
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Edited Dec 2, 2017
ah yes, the arrows are just to point out that they are one consequent to the other.

Do you mean southern Italian dialects? Definitely inadequate, their grammatical system is more Italian than proper Tuscan itself ^^’
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:iconillouminous:
Illouminous Featured By Owner Dec 2, 2017
No, southern iberian... :XD:
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 2, 2017
oh that…as you can see Vandalerian (Vandalic+Iberian), is already part of the group of Southern-romance languages, the others have more Iberian traits, such as the articles in l- instead of s-. This is mainly due to the history of southern Iberia which was first Carthaginian and then occupied by Vandals, as western North Africa.
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:iconillouminous:
Illouminous Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2017
I see ^^
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:icontoothbox:
Toothbox Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Would the existence of Byzantium increase the spread of Anatolian Latin throughout the rest of the Peninsula?
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
As far as it is shown in the map, Constantinople can hold only the final part of the peninsula.
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:icontoothbox:
Toothbox Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Does that mean there were still Arab invasions in this TL? Or was there another threat to the east?
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2017
both Arab and Turks invasion happen in this TL although the Byzantine Empire can hold better.
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:iconbryaniii:
bryanIII Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Did you base Belgian on Salic Frankish by any chance!? :p
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
nope, what I did to create Belgian was to heavily germanize modern Walloon in sounds.
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:iconbryaniii:
bryanIII Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2017
Well it sounds quite similar to what we think Salic Frankish would sound like!!
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:icontonio103:
Tonio103 Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
mmh, i wonder were do you see this, it just sounds like Walloon to me, Salic Frankish was a medieval germanic language that is thought to had some similarities with Old Dutch. Give me sources if it's anything else. Compared to French, the only supplementary similarities with Germanic languages that the Language Lore created is that it knows an Umlaut… which is not unique to Salic, all Germanic languages knew a form of umlaut…
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:iconbryaniii:
bryanIII Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017
There has long been an academic hypotheses (thats why I stressed that we think that, we don't actually know for sure and probably never will) that in the early Carolingian era as the Franks were adapting Latin customs and the Vulgar Latin with it being an top-down process some areas of the  home territory of the Salian Franks adopted a mix of their Native Frankish and Vulgar Latin resulting into the Walloon Language and maybe even Picard to a lesser extend. I thought Lorec10 Romanized Salic Frankish to create his Belgian but Germanizing Walloon would be similar enough to what I thought he did. Sources are academic papers which are scarce online but some minor mentions about the theses can be found here and here
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:icontonio103:
Tonio103 Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Ok, you did some shortcuts by calling it "sallic frankish" but I now understand what you meant. I still have some issues with it because it ignores that both Germanic languages and French have considerably evolved since the 9th century meaning that this Pre-Walloon Francic Romance can't possibly be close to indentical to Lore's Belgian.

Just for the record here is a redition of lore's sentence in a possible proto-old-French :
(Ele) Serred/Clod la fenestre avant soper/cener
/(elə) serrəð/kloð la fənestrə avant super/tsəner/
And here in Old Dutch (at least an attempt) : 
(Siu) Sluutit dat fenstar bifora ettan
/siu slu:tit dat ˈfen.star bifora tu etan/

This Salic proto romance could have looked something like this :
(Ele) Serret le fenestre/fenstar avant supar/zenar
/(elə) serət lə fənestrə/fenstar avant supar/tsənar/

Now compare with Lore's belgian :
Ele zere tüji li viniesse davant di söper

And more specifically it's pronunciation :
/ɛl zɛχ tyʒi li vinjɛs davɑ̃ di søpe/
 
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:iconbryaniii:
bryanIII Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017
Haha, yeah I tend to oversimplify things because not everyone has a degree in History and I tend to either bore or overwhelm people if I give too much info :) That being said I didn't claim the two were identical; I just simply wanted to throw him a bone by stating that I was impressed that Lorec, being a layman (no offense) with no background or specialization in the matter came close-ish with only his own curiosity guiding him. 

Also as there was no standardization of language in the 8th/9th century and the language used by the central government being Latin, there simply can not be an consensus about how Salic Frankish sounded like. There was no unitary understanding about how should talk, as there were no grammatical rules put in place. Different sub-regions of Neustria would have different grades of influence (or lack thereof)) of the Vulgar Latin. Heck my dialect even contains traces believed to be Viking-Danish as our part were raided and their language was an influencing factor to a degree here. Frankish spoken around say Lille would be different to that spoken in Ghent and by the time you reach the woodlands of the Ardennes chances are people there would not understand people from neither Ghent or Lille while all 3 of them technically spoke Salic Frankish, thats why the people that did indeed travelled spoke Latin being either a Cleric or a Noble.

PS; I also do not claim to be an expert in the matter to be clear, I only have 2 semesters worth of info about all medieval languages spoken in the Low Lands!! :p 
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:icontonio103:
Tonio103 Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
mmh ok, yeah seen like that it does make sens indeed. I'm sorry i might have been too agressive. I have seen crazy guys claiming crazy stuff here (such as French is in fact germanic (not even a romance language adopted by germanic people) or Romania is at the origin of everything xD ).

Yes of course. I know very well of that, i studied Francoprovençal dialects in Wallis and there were huge difference between neighboring villages and even inside the speech of locutors they couldn't agree which vowels to use x) Non written languages in a rural pre-modern context tend to vary hugely. It was like that in all areas in the middle ages. However some universals already existed and things that appeared later wouldn't appear in the dialects of this times. SOme examples are the typical st>ss of Walloon that developed later, nasal vowels wouldn't exist yet and a lot of final consonant would be conserved compared to current dialects. My attempts were just attempts and huge guesses to try to illustrate this.

Yes indeed, you're better qualified than me though :P I was just a bit rising eyebrows cause it felt outlandish to me at first xD
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Edited Dec 2, 2017
ah! that’s interesting, I haven’t even make it on propose! ^^
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:icontonio103:
Tonio103 Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
No it doesn't o.O what is this guy on?
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 5, 2017
Ah, you had an interesting discussion, I read it, now we both know what he meant ^^;
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:icontonio103:
Tonio103 Featured By Owner Dec 5, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Yes, it confused me at first xD I'm sorry but now i know he's not one of those weird conspirationist I have met xD
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Dec 5, 2017
ahah yes 
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:iconcartoart:
CartoArt Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Great work! I love this!
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
thank you! 
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:iconromanbozorov:
RomanBozorov Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Here is what I ment:




Countries of Europe by RomanBozorov  
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
mmh, ok, which are other countries? 
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:iconromanbozorov:
RomanBozorov Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Green is Russian Empire
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:iconlorec10:
LoreC10 Featured By Owner Edited Nov 30, 2017
how about yellow?
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:iconromanbozorov:
RomanBozorov Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2017
Yellow is Iranian Empire
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