Warhawk origin. JLU's spinning in its grave O.o

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By Lil-Hawk
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So basically there were 2 good things about the Warhawk origin story:

1) John & Shayera got back together and had lil' Rex.

2) John shaved.

The rest of it? Gah where do I begin. Did whoever wrote that thing even watch the show? Read the JLU comics? Do ANY kinda research?? :faint:

Justice League Beyond #7 was... painful. But it was only half the story. #8 turns bad into much worse... it reads like a really bad fanfic. So excuse me if I'm gonna be selective and dismiss most of it from canon cuz there's just no way for it to ever fit IN canon.

:bulletyellow: John proposes to Mari. Okay call me biased for being a Hawkgirl/GL shipper, but I only ship them cuz they WORKED. So I fully accept that John and Vixen have their own shippers and I may not be in favor of this part of the storyline cuz of my own personal preference, and that's fine. But anyway to me it seemed very out of character for both characters and for their relationship.

The relationship itself (in the show) felt like it wasn't built on the characters but on the definition of "relationship" and the characters themselves didn't bring anything into it. It seemed convenient but nothing more. It was like it was just "there" but with nothing to sustain it. That's why it didn't give me the vibe that it was going that direction. Long term relationship yeah, but that doesn't make it functional :o it seemed like it was "comfortable" but not like it was ever gonna make it out of its comfort zone.

And they both knew it, especially Mari. She likes to see things through, even if it's to the bitter end. And she also knows John still has feelings for Shayera. Out of this whole love triangle thing, I think Mari came off as the most realistic about the relationship and that's probably why I like her character in spite of the fact that she was basically defined by her relationship since all her appearances revolved around it. She's not stupid, she's not delusional, she's not weak, and that's why I've always thought when it was time to end the relationship, she'd be the one to end it. John's too much of a pighead and he has ulterior motives to keep the relationship going other than his feelings for Mari. On the show, for the time being, she seems comfortable with their "comfortable" relationship. In an issue of the JLU comics (published after the show ended) she's ready to end it and move on, cuz it seems like she wants something more, and she knows this isn't it. That's why the totally different portrayal of their relationship in the Warhawk origin story feels out of character to me.

:bulletyellow: Shadow Thief kills Mari. Like really?? Aside from being a lead into an even more ridiculous storyline, it just feels like a cop-out on the writer's end, like "ding dong the witch is dead". The easiest way to get her out of the picture without (God forbid) dealing with emotions. And as if they couldn't end the relationship and John & Shayera couldn't get back together unless Mari was dead and gone. Sure they could. All it takes is making a choice. And Mari is the most capable of them to handle a breakup. Way unnecessary death of a good character, bad plot device, and seemed totally forced, gotta remember Shayera was plan A, not plan B :o

:bulletyellow: And why is Shayera in the wrong costume anyway?? :confused:

:bulletyellow: Poor Carter. Yet another unnecessary death that doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense. Carter is NOT Thanagarian. He's a human born on Earth as Joseph Gardner, HELLO?? Research anyone?? His wings are artificial and he wears them on a harness, so him sleeping with his wings on, and the chopped wings thing in the execution scene? Um, no. And what's he doing on Rann anyway, and how did he get there?? It says the Thanagarians fled to Rann after Thanagar was conquered by the Gordanians. Which was at the end of season 2 of Justice League. Yet we have Carter, the human archaeologist from Midway City, on Earth at the time and of course long after that stalking Hawkgirl, and in Shadow of the Hawk, Ancient History, and Destroyer. In the JLU comics Carter has joined the League. So what the heck?? :faint:

BTW for the argument about the Beyond comics supposedly following the comics universe rather than the DCAU. Aside from the obvious strong ties to the DCAU timeline. Thanagarians only have organic wings in the DCAU. In the comics not only Carter the human but all Thanagarians (ALIENS) have artificial wings. So either way you slice it, it just doesn't make sense. :o

:bulletyellow: John kills Shadow Thief and gets kicked out of the GLC cuz of that. Okay but like WHY in Tartarus would the Guardians then remove the entire sector 2814 from their guardianship?? You do know a sector is comprised of more than just one planet?? So an entire sector goes unprotected cuz of the actions of one Green Lantern from one planet?? And where'd Kyle Rayner go? First appearance on Superman TAS? Remember him?? Didn't think so. :o

:bulletyellow: First they try to sell us that the GL/Vixen relationship is going somewhere even though the characters themselves aren't buying it, then kill Mari off as if the only way for HG/GL to get back together is if they don't have another choice, THEN after trying so hard to portray the GL/Vixen relationship as if it was so poignant and they really meant so much to each other etc etc etc, some African dude says like 5 words to John (who just buried the woman the writers want us to believe he wanted to spend the rest of his life with) & Shayera and they're all like okay, let's forget about everything and get back together and start making lil' Warhawks right this second (hey random African dude do you mind, we need some privacy). Like seriously, "9 months later", and good to know we're just supposed to take for granted that Thanagarian/hybrid pregnancy obviously lasts 9 months, I mean it's different for different species on the same planet, would it kill the writers to use some imagination and creativity?? (Hey maybe it would I dunno, they might be allergic to it :o)

:bulletyellow: And them quitting the League, like what are they gonna do. John is a soldier and a hero ("Legends" anyone?), if anything's worth fighting for it'd be lil' Rex... and Shayera are you kidding me?? What's she gonna do sit at home and bake cookies?? Greet people at Walmart?? AND as a Thanagarian she has a way longer lifespan than humans, which means like hundreds of years spent without smashing bad guys with that big honkin' mace, the poor gal would go bonkers like 5 days into retirement. Nope I don't think so. :faint: :tantrum:

:bulletyellow: The Mighty Warhawk saves Thanagar! So the Warhawk alone was somehow able to provide the Thanagarian resistance with everything they needed to retake their home planet. Like not to question Warhawk's awesomeness :worship: but seriously. A throwaway mention of single handedly saving Thanagar with no elaboration (cuz that would mean the writers would actually have to come up with something), um okay then. :o

Like I said in a reply to one of the comments here, I imagine the "creative" process was like, okay so at the end of JLU John was dating Mari. A relationship that's built around the concept of "relationship" rather than the characters. Regardless of how dysfunctional the characters make it, the relationship itself will continue to follow the path of "relationship", so that's why we have the proposal. Now gotta end the relationship without a breakup, since the concept we have of a relationship doesn't break up. So let's kill her off, easy way out and leaves no so-called "loose ends", no choice basically cuz it's easier to not have to deal with all that emotional stuff. Who cares that it doesn't make sense. THEN we also need some kinda action story so we're just gonna use the Vixen thing cuz we already came up with that and it already makes no sense so if we use it this way maybe we'll get away with it... rather than say use Warhawk saving Thanagar as the action story cuz we really have no clue how to come up with anything plausible, so let's just leave it to everyone else's imagination (cuz we ain't got any). :o

So. Like I said. I'm just gonna dismiss all that ridiculous stuff that doesn't make any sense. Hawkgirl and GL got back together and had Warhawk. That's canon. We saw it on TV. Everything else? I'll wait for a better story to come along. Cuz this one's just... WTF :o :faint: :tantrum:
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anonymous's avatar
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Fade31415's avatar
Super super late comment but " I think Mari came off as the most realistic about the relationship and that's probably why I like her character in spite of the fact that she was basically defined by her relationship since all her appearances revolved around it." truuuuu.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Haha this journal tends to comes back from the dead every few years =p
DaColdOne's avatar
I'll confess that I wasn't much of a fan of GL and Hawkgirl when the show had come out.  It was mostly because, at the time, I had only seen bits and pieces of the show and was never able to actually sit down and watch more than the occasional plot arc.  The ones I did see had me viewing Stewart as a self important douchebag who discounted opinions that didn't match his own and he looked down on other younger heroes like they were trash (Supergirl) who didn't belong in their line of work.  Throw in the way he was written by some writers in the comics as having a chip on his shoulder and...well... let's just say I didn't like the character as much (though I still thought he was better than Gardner or Raynor).

And then we have Shayera who I honestly didn't know much about other than she was or wasn't a traitor in the comics and came off as being arrogant and full of herself both in the few comics I read with her in them and in the episodes of JL I watched.

It wasn't until years later that I got the entire series on DVD that I was able to watch the all the episodes that I got a better portrayal of these two characters ( and yeah, I'll admit it was pretty damn heartbreaking  to watch two certain scenes involving Solomon Grundy and Shayera).   It turned out they were not the assholes I believed them to be (at least not completely) and I actually cared about these characters.

Then I looked up this issue of JLB you mentioned and....um....yeah...WTF!?!  Quick question, was this written before or after Dwayne Mcduffie passed away?   Because I don't think he would have let a poorly written story like this be part of his canon in his version of the Justice League.

On a side note, is it just me or has the DCAU lost some of it's shine since Dwayne's death?  Because he did a lot to make the animated stuff awesome when he was running things over there.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
LOL in the first run I got to watch sporadically maybe like 5 episodes in total, all from the first season... one of them happened to be War World... then like years later Justice League popped into my head and I was all like, hey, did Hawkgirl & GL ever get together like they were obviously supposed to?? LOL so I started looking them up, then I ended up watching the whole show and the whole DCAU... because of HG/GL :giggle:

And good point about Dwayne McDuffie. He passed away in early 2011 and Warhawk origin was released in 2012. The DCAU creative team did such a great job on the show, but when it came to the literary material (comic books, books etc) they handed the helm to other people, and it shows, in the Justice League Adventures/JLU comics for example, which ran kinda tandem with the show and some after it ended, it was obviously geared more toward kids with none of the more mature, rounded aspects of the show. That was when Dwayne McDuffie was still alive. Anyway so were the books based on the show. Kiddy material written for like 3rd-4th graders, well obviously the target audience required the omittance of the more mature themes, but kinda peeved me that the young audience was the ONLY target audience they directed the DCAU literature at and there was nothing for the older fans.

And THEN came the Beyond comics that was supposed to finally bring the DCAU with all of its layers into the comics... FINALLY get some much needed HG/GLness and Warhawk... AND THEY SCREWED IT UP SO ROYALLY THAT THERE'S NO WAY IN TARTARUS FOR IT TO EVER TIE UP TO THE DCAU AND ITS AWESOME CHARACTERS!!!

Wish they'd just renew JLU in all its awesomeness. Shoulda never been canceled in the first place :tantrum:
DaColdOne's avatar
The closest they got to revitalize my interest in the DCU was (and don't laugh) was Bruce Tim's Justice League: Gods and Monsters. Yeah, it was a complete and total AU, but it was interesting. It's almost as if Bruce Tim was telling DC "Oh, you want to go dark with your New 52, watch us go dark and tell better stories."

Ironically, guess what the excuse that DC gave for pulling the plug on that project: "Okay, that's too dark an no one wants to pay money to watch that."

Then they turn around and try to do "The Killing Joke" and botched it badly.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Yeah but it doesn't have to be "dark" to be more mature... it's just I guess a culture that's so overly saturated with darkness and shallowness at the same time that it's been desensitized to everything else, and so a lot of the subtleties, undertones, and aspects of life in general are simply gone, there's nothing left but shock value, and as people keep desensitizing the shock value keeps increasing... but it doesn't need all this darkness to be well-rounded
DaColdOne's avatar
True. but even JL: Gods and Monsters had a hopeful ending.  I guess what I liked about it was the whole setting and the "elseworlds" vibe I got off it (that and Darkseid and crew getting the "Red Wedding" treatment really blew me away).

As for the current "Justice League Action" series, I felt that it's gone in reverse from what we got in JLU.  It's as if they want to go the campy/cheezy route of the "Superfriends" (so glad I wasn't around when those were originally airing, but the wonders of cable and the internet never spared me the trauma of watching those decades later).

And speaking of JLU...there was pairing they kind of teased us with that made me go "Okay, that's screwed up, but I wouldn't mind seeing it"...and that was Wally and Giganta.  I also can't help wondering if they had gotten another season that Dwayne and crew might have done more with Galatea (other than her being a crispy vegetable).
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Haven't had a chance to watch Justice League Action yet, but I did watch a couple Super Friends episodes in all their dreadfulness... there was actually a Teen Titans Go parody of the dreadful old cartoons LOL... but yeah everything seems to be getting more dumbed down, lowest common denominator etc, they only care about their bottom line and that means toy sales, and supposedly adults don't buy toys (says who. I love my toys LOL... but then again I I make them myself cuz I can't afford to buy anything :o =p)... cartoons today are really just toy ads, they're measured by the merchandise they sell and nothing more. No integrity whatsoever. Actually the reason Young Justice got canceled was that apparently its fanbase got TOO big and included a lot of girls and adults rather than mostly young boys... all cartoons' target demographics are young boys cuz apparently "girls and grown ups don't buy toys". Downright insulting.

And yeah Flash and Giganta cracked me up... woulda loved seeing where they woulda taken that. Like I said never shoulda been canceled. And agreed about Galatea. Especially with Supergirl being in the future and all.
DisneyFreak010's avatar
Gosh, yes! Couldn't have said it better myself! ...I was so excited when I found the comic, then... *Fart* that!?! Really!?! What the actual heck??? :sigh: Anywho, glad I'm not the only one who was upset by it. So thank you!
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Gah yeah, so disappointing. There's really no way for it to be part of canon, and it's so bad even as a standalone that it has to be expunged from the history of existence. Wish they'd hired someone who actually KNOWS the continuity and the characters AND knows how to do research to write that thing... that's one of the things that piss me off the most about it since I spend tons of time researching my fanfics, why can't the person who actually gets paid for it have enough decency and responsibility to their readers :tantrum: guess I'll just have to stick to fanfics (hopefully I'll actually finish WRITING them... sometime soon :o)
DisneyFreak010's avatar
Guhh!... That's just the kind of disappointment that just rakes my nerves. There's hardly anything related to warhawk in comics. Much less the dcau version of Green Lantern and Hawkgirl.

After reading that piece, I actually looked back in to the fanfiction world because it just want good enough! XP (hadn't been on the site in about a year)... But, yeeeeeah. Thank goodness for writers like you who actually research and love accuracy. It's actually inspired me to get back into writing and even drawing, but you know, time. :shrug: Oh well! XD

(And don't stress, just have fun. When inspiration and time mingle together, it'll come beautifully... As always. Love your work, by the way! :heart:)
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Thanks :aww: love your work too (and so happy to meet another HG/GL fan :D)

Totally agreed that HG/GL need more spotlight... was hoping they'd go with HG/GL rather than Hawkman in Young Justice when they had a chance but of course they didn't :( but the way they handled them in the Warhawk origin comics was atrocious :o
DisneyFreak010's avatar
Aww, well thank you! (And gosh yes! There just isn't enough of them!)

I loved Young Justice, but I completely wished the same thing. XP ....Buuuut, I also do kinda maybe understand why they chose Hawkman, but still! :XD: So excited for season three though!!! :D

I'm just really glad too that someone disliked how that comic went. :( It could've been so much better!
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Loved Young Justice too but still nowhere near the quality of JL/JLU. Knew there was a very very small chance they'd go with HG/GL what with Hawkman being there and Hawkman/Hawkgirl being too common and obvious a choice, doesn't mean they COULDN'T go with HG/GL though, after all they managed to do it in JL/JLU with Hawkman there... but I guess the YJ creators just went with the easier choice :o which is kinda a shame cuz Hawkgirl shone so beautifully in JL/JLU owning her character rather than just being someone's sidekick. Hands down BEST character development in the whole show.

Of course in YJ she was reduced to a cardboard cutout background decoration, in the whole entire show all she said was literally 2 words (actually she said the same word twice). Poor unpopular Hawkgirl :( and so I decided she needed a sidekick in order to get screen time, since the only League members who get screen time are the ones with young sidekicks... and who's a better Hawkgirl sidekick than the Warhawk himself :D Young Justice needs Warhawk :eager:
YJ - Warhawk profile by Lil-Hawk

Well like I said in another post, I imagine the "creative" process was like, okay so at the end of JLU John was dating Mari. A relationship that's built around the concept of "relationship" rather than the characters. Regardless of how dysfunctional the characters make it, the relationship itself will continue to follow the path of "relationship", so that's why we have the proposal. Now gotta end the relationship without a breakup, since the concept we have of a relationship doesn't break up. So let's kill her off, easy way out and leaves no so-called "loose ends", no choice basically cuz it's easier to not have to deal with all that emotional stuff. Who cares that it doesn't make sense. THEN we also need some kinda action story so we're just gonna use the Vixen thing cuz we already came up with that and it already makes no sense so if we use it this way maybe we'll get away with it... rather than say use Warhawk saving Thanagar as the action story cuz we really have no clue how to come up with anything plausible, so let's just leave it to everyone else's imagination (cuz we ain't got any). :o
DisneyFreak010's avatar
Right!?! ... When they released the new lineup of heros for season three, I was so very much hoping for warhawk. But I also knew just how slim the chances were. And even IF they attempted to place him in, they would most likely give him a different set of parents; with Shayera and Carter being together. :roll:

And oh my gosh, I've seen that piece of art before! ...I just didn't connect that you were the source of it! :giggle: I think the first time I saw it was actually on Pinterest, and I nearly split a gut at "presence makes Hawkman squirm".

Truly though, I wish I had the talents that writers and comic artists have (one day though! XD) ... Because then, I would Soooooooo redo, and create a better ending than "that"! But for now.... I guess we just have fan fictions.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Yeah sadly I knew there was like zero chance they'd have him in season 3... I actually made this art before YJ even aired and didn't know (even though I could guess) which pairing they'd go with etc... then when they started talking about season 3 in the YJ groups and asked for character suggestions of course I brought up Warhawk, but they were all like "oh but she's Hawkwoman and she's with Hawkman" etc...

Well he could still exist. There are ways. And I woulda been SO pissed off if they made him Hawkman's son instead... they still coulda made him John's son, they coulda had him before Shayera got with Hawkman, or they coulda gone the JL/JLU route where she's a bona-fide cheater in not just one but TWO lifetimes LOL... but the creators seem to go for the obvious easy choices...

And yeah LOL that was me, most of my artwork is DCAU and especially HG/GL related cuz I'm such a hopeless geek =p (thanks for faving him BTW :aww:)

And you and me both... wish I had time to write my fics... so many way better stories than this drivel swirling in my head 
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Impious-Imp's avatar
If you're going to write a review, spell check for fucks sake.

However, bare in mind that these comics are supposed to be sort of a half way between JLU and the mainstream DCU, at least I thought they were. 
Lil-Hawk's avatar
It still didn't make any sense :o
Impious-Imp's avatar
It makes enough sense to me.  Like, I didn't like that Vixin was killed but it did spur some emotions.

Over all I like the Beyond series.  I guess I'm not as invested as you are though.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
I like the Beyond series too with the exception of the Warhawk origin story. I was really disappointed with it. It didn't make sense to me, and felt extremely out of character and out of canon, ANY canon, what with all of it being based off Carter being Thanagarian which he isn't, he was never even on Thanagar, and well all the points I've mentioned. The Guardians dropping the whole sector, not just one planet "until someone worthy of their GLness comes along" which really just felt like a way for the writers to avoid filling in the blanks between John Stewart and Kai-Ro, of course disregarding the fact that there was at least one other active human GL (Kyle, or actually 2 human GLs since in the JLU comics Guy Gardner joined the JLU), and even still, is there really no GL-worthy creature on ANY other planet in the entire sector???... how fast John & Shayera jumped back into each other's arms after losing Mari, which pretty much puts it in the same category as the GL/Vixen relationship, there out of the blue with no buildup or substance apart from its saving grace of their history and destiny, actually even a worse category since it was almost like they were forced into it by the lack of other choices which the writers try to portray as more meaningful, and yet so meaningless in the end. That throwaway reference of Warhawk single-handedly saving Thanagar after decades of Gordanian occupation...

I'm glad you enjoyed this story, but to me especially as a DCAU fan, HG/GL shipper, and someone who's been doing tons of research for my fanfics, it was painful to read and made absolutely no sense.
Impious-Imp's avatar
He was a reincarnated Thanagarian, and somehow he can fly with fake wings.  I'm going to give them a pass.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
Except that he was reincarnated on Earth and never visited Thanagar, and since he wears fake wings on a harness I seriously doubt he'd sleep with the wings on, or hurt when they're chopped off. :o
Impious-Imp's avatar
How do you know he didn't go to Thanagar later in his life?  Or somehow spliced himself to be more thanagarian?  These events take place after JLU so anything can happen.
Lil-Hawk's avatar
I guess he could, sometime after he had Joined the JLU and would have left the JLU for some reason, and somehow borrowed the League's mother box (assuming it could get him there) or found zeta-beams (and desire) to travel to war-torn, Gordanian-occupied Thanagar (but then again, Warhawk did, that is if you take that story as canon) and/or splice himself (different physiology and all), probably by himself, since no self-respecting Thanagarian would wanna associate with him (even Warhawk was considered an "abomination", and Carter's twice as human), and then for some reason he had decided to stay among them on Rann as a refugee, let's say for the sake of "enriching his Thanagarian experience", since "homeland visit" to his past life's home planet is off the table, even though I'm sure he has a way cushier, safer life waiting for him on Earth as a productive member of society... oh hey, the LEAST he could do when Shadow Thief went on his rampage was go back to Thanagar and terrorize the Gordanians rather than, you know, off himself LOL... just cuz "anything can happen" doesn't mean anything that happened would actually make sense, from a character development perspective (assuming said character isn't Arkham material) and/or from established canon perspective... and to me it still wouldn't make sense :o
anonymous's avatar
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