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The KM FUHRER by leovictor The KM FUHRER by leovictor
Pencil sketch here:
[link]

From the site;

The “Impossible” Never Were.

This is a little favor I like to ask of you guys who have a fully functioning Copy of Springsharp.
Mine refuses to work on my PC.
This is more outta Curiosity.
And it should be fun for those Curious enough too.

It’s about a Very Extreme Battleship.
So Extreme in fact that if the H44 was regarded as a “Blue Sky” design then this ship would have floated somewhere in the Vicinity of INTERGALACTIC SPACE.


A while Back when the German Battleship section of Warships1.com was still on line I read this interesting story in the H39 page.
Don’t know if it was Historically true, but it’s still an interesting story nonetheless.
This happened shortly after the sinking of the Bismarck.

Infuriated by the news and fate of his “Pride of The Kriegsmarine” Hitler ordered his Battleship Designers ( The guys responsible for the H class of battleships ) to come up with a draft of an unbeatable type of battleship built around the ‘Dora’ and the ‘Schwere Gustav’ Rail Guns.
For those that aren’t familiar with these Guns here is one fact about them.
They are the most Powerful Guns ever made by the Human species.

The battleship designers Protested against this idea.
After Hitler was Convinced by his designers that such a ship would have been Impossible to construct, ( The Idea bordered on the Insanity Anyway ) the caliber of the main guns were brought back to a more manageable 20 inch.
The following designs ultimately resulted in the H43 and H44.
But what if Adolph Hitler got his way with the designers and what would have resulted from the project?

The Schwere Gustav did some pretty Amazing things during the siege of Sevastopol around June 1942.


see this;

[link]




Here are some specs from one site of the Dora and Schwere Gustav rail guns.

Schwere Gustav

Bore 800mm L40

weight of gun 1,344 tons ( the whole weapon )

length overall of gun 164 feet (49.98 m)

height overall of gun 35 feet (10.66 m)

weight of projectile with windshield 16,540 lbs

diameter of projectile 31.5 inches (80 cm)

weight of explosive charge 2,400 lbs. of RDX

length overall of projectile 11 feet 6 inches (3.50 m)

weight of propellant charge 2,500 lbs. in 3 increments

muzzle velocity of gun 2,500 ft per sec

maximum range 51,000 yds. 30 miles

maximum elevation 50 degrees





More Specs of another site...


Gauge: 800 mm

Length of tube: 32.48 m

Range: 48 km

Total Weight: 1345 Tons

Shell Weight: 7.5 Tons

Explosive Portion of Shell: 700 kg




(And from the last site)


Effective range 40 km

Max. Elevation 53°

Total weight 1350 tons

Barrel weight 400 tons

Including 110 tons breech block & ring

Overall length 43 m

Width 7 m

Height 12 m

Barrel length 32 m (40 times its caliber)

Shell type Armor capped 3.75 meter shell (without propellant casing)

Shell Weight 7500 kg

Oh Yeah the fastest this thing could Fire as a rail gun is 2 rounds an HOUR!
I wonder how fast it would be in a BB Twin Turret configuration.




( And don’t think that mounting this gun on a battleship was a weird enough Idea.
There were plans to put it on Tank tracks and turn this Gun into a 1500 ton Self Propelled Howitzer or a Tank armed with 2 additional 5.9 inch guns and 250mm armor.
With four 20 feet wide Tracks and Powered by 4 U boat Diesel engines ( Good luck steering it )).


The Design may have looked like the H39 so it might have 8 of these Guns.
If my copy of Springsharp worked I would have found out myself but it doesn’t.
( I doesn’t even want to install. )
That is why I ask you that have a Workable Copy of Springsharp.



So this is what I want to find out ( That made the H battleship designers Crap in their pants ).


How Big ( Dimensions ) would a H type battleship be to Support the 31.5 Inch L40 Gun? ( 8 of em )

How many Tons of Ocean would she displace?

If it was required that this BB would be Immune to its own shell at a certain distance ( Yeah right ! ) How thick would her armor be both Horizontally and Vertically?

If she were to go 30 knots Max speed how Much SHP would she require?

And last but not Least.
The Cost to Built- and the ( estimate ) annual Cost to Run this Beast.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The reply came back and based the drawing on this spec;


This probably belongs in the 'new designs' section but it ties in neatly to this thread.
From our older website

H-45 Battleship Project
[link]

(This an interpretation of the original data)

[link]


Displacement: (700,000 tons planned) 462,750 tons light; 484,920 tons standard; 560,057 tons normal service; 617,927 tons full load
Dimensions:
Length: 2,000’ (609.60m)
Beam: 300’ (91.44m)
Draft: 55’ (16.75m)
Armament:
Main: 8 – 31.5” (80cm) Gustav siege guns (4 x 2)
Secondary: 12 – 9.45”/73 (24cm) Long Range AA guns (12 x 1)
Tertiary: 24 – 5.04”/60 (12.8cm) AA guns (12 x 2)
Light: 5.5cm/77 Gerat 58, 30mm AA guns
(Broadside = 131,574 lbs/59,631 kg)
Aircraft: 15 aircraft
Armor:
Belt: 14.96” (380mm) Deck: 14.96” (380mm)
Turrets: 25.96” (660mm) Conning tower: 24.8” (630mm)
Machinery: 8 shafts, (480,000 shp planned) 498,735 shp/372,057 kw
Performance: 28 knots; Range: 30,000 nm @ 20 knots
Complement: (5,000 planned) 10,236 – 13,307
Distribution of weights:
Armament: 16,425 tons = 2.9%
Armor: 158,660 tons = 28.3%
Machinery: 11,931 tons = 2.1%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 274,955 tons = 49.1%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97,307 tons = 17.4%
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons = 0.1%

This is a 700,000 ton German battleship built to carry a battery of eight 80 cm/31.5 guns, the siege gun Gustav. This is strictly a flight of fancy taken from remarks made by Hitler that he wanted to mount 80 cm guns on the H-class. It was estimated that it would take a 700,000 ton ship to mount them.

Rate of fire for the main battery would be quite slow, one round per gun every five minutes or more while the AA defense would be much more rapid. The AP shell weighed over 15,000 lbs with 441 lbs of burster while the HC shell weighed over 10,000 lbs with 882 lbs of burster.

The 24 cm/73 AA armament was based upon a Kriegsmarine late war study to develop a land based high altitude gun firing a 300 plus pound shell up to 59,000 feet. It is possible that a 700,000 ton ship could carry twelve of these in single double purpose mounts, partly to make up for the slow rate of fire of the 80cm main battery and to engage cruisers.

The 5"/60 were probably Germany's best AA weapon at the end of the war and would have served this mastodon well.

The 80 cm weight of shell is based upon reality. Initially, the 80cm gun was intended to bombard the Maginot Line but as it was not completed in time, it was intended then to use it against Gibraltar. As Spain would not give right of passage to German invasion forces, the Wehrmacht took the gun(s) to Russia and bombarded Sevastapol and possibly Leningrad. The Gustav fired approximately 46 rounds in two days and inflicted incredible damage.

The turrets on this ship are so huge in order to provide sufficient room to handle absolutely giant shells and hold the extremely extensive and strong hoist and rammer facilities needed to fire the shells.

There is no detail information regarding the ship’s power plant. The total SHP required for a ship of this size dictated at least 8 shafts. Based on the extended range of these ships it would appear that a portion of the power plant was diesel.

This design does not ‘compute’ when plugged into Springsharp. The numbers in the weight distribution are extreme estimates.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The sketch is based on the results.

This is KM Fuhrer.
A ship that is potentially just as dangerous to handle the guns by the crew as the ones that are on the receiving end by it.

Another detail.

Eventhough Schwere Gustav and Dora had caliber lengths of 40 calibers.
The Fuhrer uses the naval standard 52cal 800mm guns.

I used the KM Bismarck for size comparison.

.
Add a Comment:
 
:icono-ekrub:
O-Ekrub Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2018
What is the purpose of that flat empty portion of the ship's center?
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Feb 22, 2018
Supposed to be a platform for light AA but I ran out of idea in how to do the AA layout and I was too lazy to finish it.
Reply
:icono-ekrub:
O-Ekrub Featured By Owner Feb 23, 2018
Would you be at all interested in making an updated/completed version, possibly with the Schwerer Langer Gustav or the Langer Gustav to increase its standoff range? As it stands, its range is almost the same as the Iowa class, and this would make the ship vulnerable. Here is a nice website about the Gustav gun and its variants: samilitaryhistory.org/vol124lw…
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Feb 23, 2018
The KM Fuhrer already has a 52 caliber long gun

Schwerer Gustav has a 40 caliber barrel length and the gun was made light so its bulk won't sink on land
when you transport the gun barrel by rail.
As a result the gun could only handle lower pressures and therefore can only shoot shells at Iowa's range.

The KM Fuhrer here I designed with 52 caliber long guns which are vastly more powerful than the Schwerer Gustav.
The Gun can be this long and heavy because it's mounted stationary on a floating ship and doesn't have to be dragged
on land by rail car.

KM Fuhrer could probably shoot a heavier shell than the Schwerer Gustaf approx 40 miles or 64 kilometers away.
With specially designed a long range shell it could shoot it over 100 km but that would do less damage and harder to hit
a moving enemy battleship at such ranges (unless you utilize electric guidance)
Reply
:icono-ekrub:
O-Ekrub Featured By Owner Feb 23, 2018
Hmmm, interesting. Was that ever a real proposal? Also, would it be terribly difficult to finish the defensive armament? 
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Feb 24, 2018
mounting a 80 cm gun was never a real proposal.
I did read that somebody brought it up to Hitler but the admirals
protested saying that a ship the size of an H44 could only mount two 80 cm guns.
I don't know if this account is historic but Hitler was a megalomaniac.
Reply
:iconschwartzbraun:
Schwartzbraun Featured By Owner May 28, 2017
How tall was it in meteres
Reply
:icontheanonnymuspanzer:
What about of this?

A mega mexican battleship of 1,500,000 tons, 2,500 mts, a hull of 9 to 15 mts of armor, a max speed of 32 knots/h and guns of 1,600, 1,200, 920, 800, 510, 460, 420, 410, 406, 380, 355, 280, 240, 210, 180, 170, 150, 140, 130, 128, 105,  88, 75, 57, 50, 47, 37, 30, 25, 20, 13.2, 13, 7.92, 7.7 mm, etc...
Reply
:icontheanonnymuspanzer:
TheAnonnymusPanzer Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2016
My battleship, the  Führer Engel, will had at least 16 guns of 1,600mm with shells of 15 tons,(30 with the gunpower charge), and they will fly at mach 5 at maxim distance of 35 milles.
Reply
:iconsakura-fanboi:
Sakura-fanboi Featured By Owner Apr 28, 2016
Leovictor , what caliber guns are in the triple turrets? 28cm/54.5 SK C/34?
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Apr 29, 2016
That's correct.
I based this design on a real one.
KW 45 and KW50 which had 15 cm triple turrets.

forum.worldofwarships.com/inde…
Reply
:iconsakura-fanboi:
Sakura-fanboi Featured By Owner Mar 25, 2016
Hmm... This thing has only 380mm armor belt? I guess it's like a oversized Iowa- it has no immune zone against her own guns.
Reply
:iconeric-arts-inc:
ERIC-ARTS-inc Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2015  Professional Digital Artist
As I understand Admiral Raider  attempted to institute a initiative called the "Z-Plan". Which was a planned reinvention of the German navy focusing primarily on bringing plans for truly monstrous super-dreadnoughts to life. The first two were naturally Bismarck and Tirpitz, however even bigger capital ships were envisioned. The biggest having been designated "H-44" which looks fairly similar to your concept of this magnificent sea weapon. The Fuhrer himself would have been delighted by such an enormous vessel, it speaks to his megalomania and godlike perception of himself and his thousand year reich.
Reply
:iconkittilsvogel:
Kittilsvogel Featured By Owner Jun 29, 2015  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Working on 8 hour x 3 shift rotation, it would take over 6 years to complete with 3400 workers, and more steel than building 4 Iowa class battleships. The fact the main guns alone would have to be made from scratch, and everything associated with them for ship purposes would take years. 18knot speeds would be possible, but abhorently expensive in the long run.

The battleship study that culminated in the the final H-44 design, would take 4-5 years to complete, and 2.5x the amount of steel used for the Tirpitz, and cost about 3.5 times that of the Bismarck (Hitlers Germany did not have inflation). Now the steel would be readely available if the war had ended in favour of Germany by X-mas of 1942, (a Stalin surrender, allied invasion plans not made yet etc...) just by the recycling of steel of damaged ships everywhere. Even if a contract for her had been given, it still would take 2 years to complete the plans, build a future port and obtain the needed manpower to build the ship. But, why even build her at all, Tirpitz and other ships were still afloat, fully functional and crews at the ready, and the Graf Zeppelin was 90% complete at this time. The National Socialist's would most likely focus again on it's people, infrastructure, and the Madagaskar plan and possibly on giving Japan a hand, since they also had an agreement like, with Italy...
Reply
:iconinfiniterespect:
InfiniteRespect Featured By Owner Jan 24, 2015  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
A ship worthy of the Gods...
Reply
:iconphillipzu:
Phillipzu Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Woah! O_O
Reply
:iconkirovrampager:
KirovRampager Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
This should have been built a perfect weapon of god worthy of being built
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2011
Unfortunately despite being impressive.
She's a white elephant (Forget doing secret missions with her) and a target hard to miss.
She's also a Navigational hazard in the confined waters of the North Sea.

This is just a concept
Reply
:iconkirovrampager:
KirovRampager Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
heh white elephant still everything deserves a change at life but i see your point as well
Reply
:iconkillcupido:
killcupido Featured By Owner Jul 19, 2011
...
Plain old what.
Reply
:iconnonamegivenatall:
nonamegivenatall Featured By Owner Jun 18, 2011
Would this even be possible to build?

becuase if so, then I wouldn't be surprised if comparisons to a certain anime were being made...
Reply
:iconnonamegivenatall:
nonamegivenatall Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2011
...I'm surprised it hasn't been comapred to a certain anime yet... Seriously, this thing is impossible, and well.... you see where I'm getting at?
Reply
:iconsavayan:
Savayan Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2011
That is just a simply absurd ship. It's like something out of the Naval Ops series of games.
Reply
:iconlordomegaz:
LordOmegaZ Featured By Owner Sep 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
i love that game XD
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2011
It did NOT come from me.
Well the drawing is mine based on somebody else sketch.
This drawing was a result of a battleship Board discussion about a Battleship armed with the monstrous Schwere Gustav 800mm guns.

And it was later I found out (to my Surprise) that The German Naval Design Board dreamt up this ship in WW2 too.
It's dubbed H45

[link]

...
Reply
:iconsavayan:
Savayan Featured By Owner Jan 5, 2011
Yeah, I read that. Still an absurd ship. It's just Hitler being absurd, not you.
Reply
:iconjazzlizard:
JazzLizard Featured By Owner May 7, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
Very nice drawing. I think if the Jerries had actually built this, it could have easily ended the war for them much sooner, but only because they'd pour so much resources into it, only to have it sunk by a couple sneaky torpedoes and bombers.
Reply
:iconleovictor:
leovictor Featured By Owner May 7, 2010
You don't even need torpedoes.

This thing would simply ground it's bottom @ the North Sea.
Reply
:iconjazzlizard:
JazzLizard Featured By Owner May 7, 2010  Professional Digital Artist
Yeah, but then they'd have a nice fortified position, but it would still be vulnerable to gravity bombs and such.
Reply
:iconbattleshipsvsbeasts:
battleshipsvsbeasts Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2012
Actually, from the size of this KMS Fuhrer, its size alone would have to render it immune to both bomb and torpedo attacks, and the only thing to destroy it was another monster ship like it or possibly a nuclear armed bomb, if the bomber carrying it gets through the luftwaffe defences and heavy AA fire from the Fuhrer itself and any escorts it may have.
Reply
:iconjazzlizard:
JazzLizard Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
There's no such thing as being immune to bombs or torpedoes, a pass from a squad of heavy bombers dropping a spread of ordinance on something as un-maneuverable as this would utterly decimate it. Also, while this ship would undoubtedly have a lot of AA defense, the fact that it's such a large ship means that it would literally be a sitting duck from high-altitude attacks. And since torpedo detonations in deep water, especially as deep as this ships hull is, mean that the majority of concussive force would be spread into the ship, buckling its hull and causing an immense amount of damage within it.
Reply
:iconbattleshipsvsbeasts:
battleshipsvsbeasts Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2012
Except in WW2 in the Pacific Theatre had demonstrated the capability of having thick armor against bombs and torpedoes against large battleships. Yamato and Musashi for example may have been sunk by air attack, but the amount of punishment absorbed was immense, with each ship absorbing as much as nearly fifteen torpedoes and many bombs each, so a massive ship may be a sitting duck as you said, but its size also helps in protecting itself as battleships are renowned for having very tough armor, even for todays standards.

Even so, apart from loss of the Arizona and Oklahoma in the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US had never lost a battleship in WW2.

Plus, the South Dakota class battleships anti-torpedo belts were moved inside of the ship, allowing it to comfortably withstand hits even from guns of the same size and calibre. If the Fuhrer had another armored belt moved to the interior, it would be completely safe from torpedo attack due to its size as an added bonus. And the ships hull would be so heavily reinforced it would be rare for the hull to buckle from a torpedo hit anyways.

Also, as the Tirpitz had scared the British Admiralty so much it was forced to tie down the heavy units in case she broke out, meaning if Tirpitz had such a high scare factor, then the Fuhrer would be capable of causing so much of a ruckus then any convoy would refuse to sail to Russia. And if the convoys refused to supply Russia then Germany woud've taken over over half of Russia. This was demonstrated when Convoy PQ17 was ordered by the Admiralty to scatter due to a false report of Tirpitz attempting to intercept, and that had caused the convoy to be left defenseless and each ship was steadily picked off by German aircraft and submarines, and all that time the Tirpitz didn't even have to leave the fjords let alone fire a shot.

All that means that such a massive superbattleship like the Fuhrer would be capable of not just doing damage physically but also mentally as well, and with an immensely powerful arsenal of weapons the Fuhrer would also be highly capable of starving Britain into surrender, with the assisting help of friendly U-Boats and aircraft for scouting and plotting course to the next set of targets.
Reply
:iconjazzlizard:
JazzLizard Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
Completely safe? What about it's rudder and propeller shafts? I could also see specially designed weapons being used against it, such as the Wallis rolling skip bomb or large-sized torpedoes. And if I remember correctly, the largest enemy warships sunk were done so through combined efforts of entire fleets; which is what would be brought to bear against this thing. It might have been intimidating and terrifying to opposing fleets, but once they realized that it was just a huge, slow-moving target, they'd have rallied together and sent it to join it's sisters.

I do however agree with you that this ship would have been a tough, effective weapon of war if it had been built. I also think that it would not have been tough or effective enough, and would have gone the way of many other massive warships.
Reply
:iconbattleshipsvsbeasts:
battleshipsvsbeasts Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2012
Except the so-called huge, slow moving target won't be that easy to disable, let alone destroy.

The combined fleet effort may be enough to bring something like the Fuhrer into a position where it won't easily escape, but the losses for the fleet will be very high, possibly losing several important ships, including capital ships if they end up in the gunners crosshairs, and 16" armor belts withstanding a 30"+ projectile? Impossible to avoid. Although even if the huge shell falls short it would still cause immense damage to the enemy ship, possibly getting hit underwater and breaking in half from the force of the projectile hitting and detonating.

And if the Fuhrer did end up coming into contact with elements or nearly whole of the British Home Fleet then the losses would be in favour for the Germans as the Fuhrer would also be armed with additional 15" guns both for naval warfare and fire support.

Take one of the British or American capital ships for example, if it was hit by a shell from the 30" guns then it would have the same fate as the Hood, blown up into pieces or in two.

The thing with torpedoes is, their size is partially restricted to the size of the submarine and the aircraft itself, as even a torpedo the size of the Tallboy Earthquake Bomb, it would suffer from depth problems, such as being too heavy to remain at the required depth level or too large for even operational use, and the Germans would be aware of the vulnerability of the stern equipment, so it would be possible to add additional 'collapsable' honeycomb hull structures, as these take and absorb the brunt of the damage and leave the inner hull unharmed.

Even so for a ship the size of the Fuhrer, its speed would also have to be enhanced by several fractions by the insanely powerful engines the Fuhrer would possess, possibly accelerating to a top speed of somewhere around 35/40knots+, for a short time to preserve fuel.

The combined efforts of entire fleets also brings the dangers of having that fleets' primary target having a strong well defended escort, so the attacking fleet would have to be forced to retreat to avoid certain destruction from both the escorts and the Fuhrer itself. Think about this.

Another thing I forgot to mention, there is a very fine line between being capable of getting brought down and being too big to be destroyed. The Yamatos were under that line when designs were completed, so they were done and dealt with. The H44s on the other hand would just be on the opposite side.

The other thing about being so big is the size of the weapons you can carry, as you said the Fuhrer (H44 class) was designed around the Shwere Gustav and Dora superguns, and having eight of those guns is by far capable of causing very serious physical and psyhcological damage to the enemy, and even more if it had sister ships working cooperatively together.

Even so, if the Fuhrer was on routine merchant raiding missions like the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and not penned up in fjords like the Tirpitz for example, it would certainly be capable of forcing the British to be extremely wary of the Fuhrer or its sisters when the British ships went on naval patrols.

And even it had sister ships they would be also capable of very intense damage to the Allies' morale in ship losses, multiple defeats and many more by each H44 class ship. This would also add the H44 class to be the most powerful, largest, and the most deadliest weapons ever if they were built.
Reply
:iconxeltosh:
Xeltosh Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2009
Just imagine, the germans have build that "Monster"....maybe the war have ended other....XD

i think it was good, that they haven`t build that thing, because i wouldn`t want to live in a Nazi-germany XD
Reply
:iconhuchia:
Huchia Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
If hitler had his way with alot of building plans, the war would've ending in their favor. No doubt.

hitler HAD convinced his engineers to start this i believe:
[link]
Reply
:iconxeltosh:
Xeltosh Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2010
i think, he has build it, but i would be a waste, because he is of no use. he´s to big, not transportable, to slow, and he needed to much crew....
Reply
:iconbluefoxp:
BluefoxP Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2009  Hobbyist Digital Artist
The H-39 was they last reasonable Battleship after that it just got bigger and bigger and boom there's the H-44 is a Titan of Battleships. Nice pic of the H-44.
Reply
:iconarundel-dacre:
arundel-dacre Featured By Owner May 14, 2009
Reminds me of the super dreadnoughts on NationStates.
Reply
:iconmrdude247:
mrdude247 Featured By Owner Mar 13, 2009
holy shit...this...is...GOD
Reply
:iconmrdude247:
mrdude247 Featured By Owner Mar 13, 2009
if god was a battleship i mean
Reply
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