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November 23, 2017
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Why I'm glad John Lasseter is leaving Disney

:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Edited Nov 23, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Reposted to tell that bastard :iconmrgreen36: to stay the Hell out of this discussion, or him and his trolling will be reported to the staff 

So yeah, in case anyone is wondering, I've heard all about the whole matter of John Lasseter leaving the Disney studio. The circumstances of his leaving aren't important to me, but I for one am glad that he's not going to be lording over Disney animation for a while, and even kind of glad to see him exposed in some way as not being the great man everyone thinks he is. I myself used to think highly of him in the animation industry, but any respect I had for him became lost with the way he has been leading the Walt Disney Animation Studio today, whose animation I looked up to and admired before his movies with Pixar were ever a thing.

Here's what I think people just don't get about Disney that I feel I know too well from my own long and personal experience with them...

John Lasseter and Ed Catmull were pretty much the ones who really established Pixar as an animation studio and popularized the whole concept of computer animated movies to begin with. So you kind of have to ask yourself: what business do they really have to be running a studio with a long time-honored history in traditional hand-drawn animation if much of their own history, experience, and preference is in computer animation? The truth is that if it wasn't for Disney deciding to put them in those newfound positions, they wouldn't have any business at all. Ed Catmull is a computer scientist for crying out loud, and they made him president over Disney animation?

I can't help but feel that in his rise to power over Disney animation and his personal bias for his own vision of computer animation, Lasseter has failed to maintain the integrity of the Walt Disney Animation Studio and its 2D roots. He was once just a lowly animator for Disney back in the 80's, and ironically enough he was fired from the studio over his enthusiasm of wanting to use CGI in The Brave Little Toaster. Now it almost feels like some twisted form of revenge where he's been enforcing all the ideals of Pixar over Disney's animation department, including the Pixar way of doing animation. Sure, he may have been the one that pushed for Disney's brief hand-drawn revival with The Princess and the Frog, showing that he did have a respect for the art form and Disney's roots at the time, but he obviously didn't stay committed to it for long. Not to mention that he was still letting both animation studios of Disney/Pixar work under the same medium, even though it was Disney's whole mistake in the first place that they started straying into 3D animation thinking that they needed to abandon 2D animation. When their 2D animation wasn't to blame at all.

So as you can see, I definitely have my reasons for hating John Lasseter now. I'm sure he's not going to want to give up his reign over Disney for too long, but I would definitely be a happy man if he ended up leaving the studio for good. Just like when he left Disney in the 80's.
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:iconjollivetcastelot:
jollivetcastelot Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018
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:iconfrisby-2007:
Frisby-2007 Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018  Student General Artist
Jesus, I found this thread through this guy's Encyclopedia Dramatica page.

Look, I despise Disney's CG films (with the exception of Tangled) and their Pixar ones too, but this is just beyond my own level of grasping your insanity. You have to realize that, as much as I'D want another 2D animated film Disney too, they aren't going to make it unless it racks in the big bucks for them and they get someone who truly CARES to make more of them.

Lassetter claimed to be such a huge fan of Disney 2D animated films, while that was true for the most part, where was that love when he distanced himself from them after the supposed "flop" of The Princess and the Frog? (it wasn't a flop, it just didn't do as well as DISNEY wanted it to). Or Winnie The Pooh's flop, which was Disney fault for putting it up against Harry Potter and not even advertising it as well as they do their stupid other animated films? If he "cared" so much about 2D animated films then he'd evidently still see how the movies STILL MADE MONEY and go on with it. But he didn't because he's evidently hopped the profit bandwagon.

^ THIS is what your arguments should be like, not laughable comments that just make you look like someone who can't stop living in the past.

Lassetter being gone won't unfortunately bring back 2D animation from Disney, in fact I assume they're just going to get someone who's going to push more awful 3D films just to make more money.
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
You don't have to insult me, you know. Your points are very true also, and I agree with them.

Even if there are still other people posing problems for Disney right now, such as Bob Iger and Ed Catmull, getting John Lasseter out of Disney is still a good and much needed start. Especially when, like you said, he can't even be trusted to keep his word and stick to his guts about bringing Disney back to 2D animation, even if they only started going back again because he wanted them to. People like himself and Catmull, who are experts in pioneering computer animation, are simply not the right kind of people to be leading an animation studio with a legacy in hand-drawn animation, because they can't always be trusted to do it without having bias for their own medium, as I've been seeing with how much Disney animation today is looking and feeling like Pixar animation with them in creative control of their current animated features. You are absolutely right that there needs to be more people in the studio again who truly care about 2D animation and maintaining the artistic roots of Disney.

As for ED, I may have to do something about them eventually, because they really don't have the right to be violating other people on the internet. I've been doing a very good job of just ignoring them and not caring about what they're writing though, cause I know that whole site is just run by trolls and predators.
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Student Filmographer
honestly, I'm more concerned about the things Lasseter possibly did that warranted his temporary leave...

Sure, Disney may not produce 2D animated films anymore, but it's not like the art form's dead.  It lives on through cartoons on television, on the web, and some studios outside of America still produce amazing films (such as Cartoon Saloon).  
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well we don't really have the right to say that they won't, because they weren't even supposed to turn away from their 2D animated films.

And aside from anime, television animation today is crap.
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Student Filmographer
Yeah, but the truth is CGI films are cheaper to produce, and so far Disney's doing just fine with them.  They don't have any reason to return to hand-drawn animation at the moment, but who knows?  Things could always change.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You think so?  I'd have to disagree.  There are plenty of good cartoons today -I dunno about anime though.  
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:iconfrisby-2007:
Frisby-2007 Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018  Student General Artist
Actually, 3D animated films cost MORE to make, while the 2D ones are cheaper. The thing is that 3D animated films just bring in more money since they're more popular.
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018  Student Filmographer
Ooh okay!  That's my mistake, thanks for the correction!
I think the fact that 3D animation is less time-consuming also helps though :O Once the models are done and rigged, you're good to go.  You don't have to worry about keeping them on-model/clean-up animation. Plus it's easier to change the lighting/camera movement in 3D. 
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
No. It. ISN'T!

That's just a stupid myth that the studios came up with because they want an excuse to throw 2D away and not do the work anymore. It's proven by the fact that Princess and the Frog had a smaller budget of $105 million compared to the whopping $260 million of fucking Tangled.

Disney was never meant to turn away from their 2D animated films. They chose to make hasty, reckless, short-sided assumptions that their early 2000's films weren't doing well because they were in 2D animation, and that was never true at all. They had no business laying off all of their 2D animators from the 90's and shutting down all of their 2D animation studios only because they thought that 2D animation was the problem. So I don't care if you think that they're "doing well" right now, when as far as I'm concerned they're living a lie. The art of Disney animation is not CGI, and it has no true business being so.
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:iconshadowdroid677:
shadowdroid677 Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018
Hello there! I'd like to step in as someone who has had some experience in 3D CGI and stop-motion animation, and I'm currently trying to get 2D animation down (which is hard as hell):

3D animation in regards to CGI is a hundred times easier than 2D animation. Trust me. If you don't believe me, you can try this out (I mean it, test this out):

You want to make a character walk across the screen. You're going to do this in 2D as well as 3D. For the 3D animation, you have to first build your model, rig it, and then test to see if the rigging was done properly. After that, start animating! Each frame has to have the body move a tiny bit each time, which isn't too bad since your model is ready to go. Just move the legs bit by bit each frame until a basic walking animation is done. After that, go back to your first frame and do the same thing with the arms. All in all, it's not too hard, the only hard part is rigging the model. Lastly, if you want to add color to your model, you can. Just color it and save it, and it will be the colors you wanted throughout the entire animation. If you want a source of light, just add a new light source and position it however you want, as the shading on the model will be consistent in the animation.

Now, for 2D, you're going to do the same thing, but it's slightly different: first, you are going to make the major frames, or the frames that have the most important forms of movement (you can do this as well in 3D animation if it makes it easier, I personally did). Then, go back, and draw some major in-between frames, making sure your character stays on model (you need to draw them as similar as possible with each and every frame). Finally, do the last frames in between them all, making the animation as smooth or as choppy as you want. Next, watch the animation and make sure your character is on-model throughout the entire animation. If it's not in some frames, go back and redraw those. Finally, coloring the model. In every frame, color the character however you want. BUT, if you don't color every frame, the character will look like they're blinking in and out of existence since their colors aren't always there. Make sure the colors are the same as well in every frame (you don't want the shirt to be red in one frame, but blue in the next). If you want shading, do that in every frame, making sure it's accurate to the light source you want to portray.

The 3D one should take 1-2 days to make the model, a full day to rig it (2 for me, rigging was a bitch to do for me personally), and maybe 2 days to fully animate it. Coloring takes a second, and so does creating a light source. The 2D one, however, will take 1 day to create the major frames, 2-3 more days to create the major in-between frames, 2 more days to do the last remaining frames, 2 days of correcting the animation, anywhere from 2-4 days just coloring, and 3 days to finish the shading if you didn't do it with the coloring (this is if you're not doing anything in this time frame but animating, sleeping, and eating)

All in all, the 3D animation will take roughly a week to do if you're having trouble like me with the rigging. The 2D animation one will take anywhere from 9-12 days if you spend maybe 6-10 hours each day working on it.

So, from my experience, 3D animation is easier and faster to do compared to 2D. If you wish to go into 2D animation, you need to take a 3D animation course as well to get a good understanding of it. Now, 3D animation has its drawbacks just like how 2D has its own benefits. What I'm getting at is, the reason Disney chose to go into 3D animation is because it's less time consuming, which means that's less hours their employees will be working, and that helps reduce the cost of the production of a movie overall (less time you're working on something, the less time you need to be paid). Not just that, but 3D animation is doing very well in America, so they know going to 3D was a better option at this moment in time.

I personally adore 2D animation. I'm super new at trying my hand at it, but I love sitting down and just taking my time and drawing every frame. Do I get frustrated? Absolutely! But that doesn't stop me from liking it. That also doesn't stop me from watching 3D animated films: people worked really hard on those, Cocoa is a fantastic example of how hard work can create a beautiful film regardless of its medium. If I like a movie, I'll watch it, and I won't care if it's one form of animation or the other.
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Listen here, you don't get to pop into my topics just to give me one big fucking lecture to defend 3D animation and make excuses for Disney falling away from their true art form, got it? And no animators in the past ever needed to take courses in 3D animation to learn how to do 2D animation, when there was no damn thing as 3D animation before Pixar! You don't need 3D animation to know how to be a 2D artist! And I am not going to defend the studios for wanting to phase out 2D animated movies like you want to just because they refuse to do the fucking work.

I am closing this discussion. Right now. And don't even think of showing your face in any of my other discussions again if you're just going to be another of those pathetic CGI apologists.
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Student Filmographer
Woah, dude, relax.  I'm not trying to start a fight.  
Look, I'd love to see 2D animation to return to mainstream media, too (mainly because I'm a 2D animator and I want a job lmao), but I'm just saying it's not likely to happen anytime soon. :/ 
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Not when people who claim to love 2D animation spend more time paying to see 3D animation than actually speaking out about it.
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Student Filmographer
Well, y'know, people are allowed to love both 2D and 3D animation...just sayin'. 
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
My point is that nobody who really wants more 2D animation should be wanting to like 3D animation, when the studios are using 3D to replace 2D.
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(1 Reply)
:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
We've tried to explain this to him a million times!
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:iconswiftyxiii:
SwiftyXIII Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Student Filmographer
Oh dear...Are you serious? D: 
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Don't listen to her. This is my topic and she doesn't belong in it.
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:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
He's even got an ED page!
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(2 Replies)
:iconsupershanko:
SuperShanko Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2017
I think it was bound to happen because traditional 2D for Disney was beginning to fall apart around the early 00's because they were running out of material to use and while Emperor's New Groove and Lilo/Stitch were good it was obvious they were at their last gasp, while Pixar as a whole was just becoming the dominant force in animation. I mean holy shit, look at the years, 2004 it was Home on the Range vs. Incredibles, so there you go, while as we all can see Disney still had an uphill battle with 3D until 2010 when it found its niche..... There's always anime I guess. 
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
They were just putting out weaker movies than the ones they were putting out in the 90's, and being in 2D animation had nothing to do with it. Even Walt's remaining nephew Roy E. Disney at the time caught onto that, asking why they couldn't just go back to making better movies with stronger storytelling, but the studio insisted that they be hasty enough to blame 2D altogether and throw away their artistic roots completely, with the notion that all their animated films will be automatically better if they make them be CGI like Pixar or DreamWorks. Yet Chicken Little was obviously no better than Home on the Range, which only proves how flawed that corporate mindset of theirs truly is. Not to mention that they had already released two 2D animated features in 2002 with Lilo & Stitch and Treasure Planet, and one of those movies was clearly more successful than the other. You don't blame the medium just because one 2D movie didn't do as good as another one, when it's more likely that it just wasn't marketed as good as the other movie or didn't have as good of a story as the other movie. For every great live-action movie to come out of Hollywood, there have always been some bad movies as well. Movies don't suddenly stop being filmed in live-action just because we end up getting a bad one here and there.

And Pixar just got in Disney's way even though they were making their movies for them. The people of that animation studio like John Lasseter really don't have any real business to be having creative control over Disney's animation studio, thinking that they can say what they should or shouldn't be doing anymore. It's because they're trying to turn Disney into Pixar that they've been ruining the studio and taking away its identity.
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:iconsupershanko:
SuperShanko Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2017
I forgot to mention that Hollywood follows trends. So with Pixar, and eventually DreamWorks doing CG animation, it was bound to take on for Disney that would and this idea of being mad as Lasseter is only partly warranted, while you should be mad at Bob Iger, the person who's job is to make money for the studio hence why they bought Marvel, Star Wars, PIXAR and so on. He's not interested in doing a fantastic movie if it only rakes in 3 million compared to a non-original entity that'll ensure 800 million.  
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I blame Iger as well, but I still think that getting rid of Lasseter is a good start.
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:iconsupershanko:
SuperShanko Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2017
It won't change their animation style until there's a resurgence of 2d animation, and that won't happen until 2D animation is a dominant style again, which hard to say "when" if 3d animation continues to evolve and like with that upcoming Spider-man movie being different than traditional cg animated movies. Then you still have anime that's completely digital yet looks 2d in design.
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
They're the ones who have been trying to get rid of it in the first place. The decline of 2D animated films in America has only ever been because of them.
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:iconsupershanko:
SuperShanko Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2017
Who?
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:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2018  Hobbyist Digital Artist
They never wanted to get rid of it, they never thought they would, it's just a different way of doing something that they've always done! 
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:iconlonecl0ud:
Lonecl0ud Featured By Owner Dec 22, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Can I just say I think it'd be really weird for the Brave Little Toaster to be in 3d? I like it's quirky 2d animation so much, it's part of what made it stand out to me so much, that and the first movies extremely dark undertone. Loved it.
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Dec 22, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Brave Little Toaster was never going to be entirely CGI, though. The use of CGI that Lasseter was wanting for that film was to put 2D characters in 3D environments, much like what Disney would later do for movies like Treasure Planet. It was based on this test animation that was done earlier at Disney: www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-EpaP…

To be fair, I still prefer that over everything having to be CGI, including the characters themselves. Now CG animation just exists to take the place of the very art of drawing characters to life altogether, as the studios so want the agenda to be.
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:icondldonovan:
DLDonovan Featured By Owner Dec 18, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
There are two possible routes disney can go after Lasseter

A) they hire a Hayao Miyazaki-Like visionary who would not be afraid to take risks and expiriment, hopefully giving 2D animation a second chance. 

B) They hire a Chris Meladandri-like businessman who effectively turns Disney into Illumination entertainment. 

Knowing the serile state of Hollywood, option B seems more likely 
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:icondldonovan:
DLDonovan Featured By Owner Dec 18, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Nevermind, they did go with option B, Looks like Disney is Screwed
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:iconultimatecluckinbell:
UltimateCluckinbell Featured By Owner Dec 16, 2017   General Artist
I'd love to see another 2D animated film, I'm afraid it's not happening anytime soon XC
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:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
but it's not going to be from Disney!
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:iconultimatecluckinbell:
UltimateCluckinbell Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017   General Artist
I figured not :C
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:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
plus now they've acquired Fox, so more new-fangled animation!
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:iconultimatecluckinbell:
UltimateCluckinbell Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2017   General Artist
What's fangled animation?... Is this a stupid question?, I'm feeling I shouldn't ask
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:icontooneguy:
ToonEGuy Featured By Owner Dec 16, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Not with the kind of people running the studio right now. That's why we need to get rid of some of them.
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:iconultimatecluckinbell:
UltimateCluckinbell Featured By Owner Dec 16, 2017   General Artist
Maybe... I couldn't give a answer
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:iconjb-xv:
jb-XV Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2017  Professional Digital Artist
i didn't know what to expect.

i mean, i saw this thread, and the name of the person who made it, and i knew exactly what the content would be. guess i just needed verification.
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:iconlizzychrome:
LizzyChrome Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
This guy still has me blocked for liking modern Disney. Has he blocked you yet? 
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:iconjb-xv:
jb-XV Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2017  Professional Digital Artist
nah, i don't think i've interacted with him enough. but i've read the threads and comments he makes, and they all seem to say basically the same thing.
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:iconscottahemi:
ScottaHemi Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
ok another random CGI rant aside

anyone know why disney is letting this guy go?
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:iconfreeingmyangelwings:
FreeingMyAngelWings Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
He isn't being fired. He placed himself on a leave of absence because of the whole Hollywood sexual misconduct scandal. He was accused of sexual misconduct with an old co-worker. 
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:icontswade2:
TsWade2 Featured By Owner Dec 2, 2017
There's still a chance that he might get fired depending on the investigations.
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:iconfreeingmyangelwings:
FreeingMyAngelWings Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
True, but of course any glimmer of hope that anybody has just takes it without reading what is being reported. 
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:iconmace121:
Mace121 Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Then again, he's part of a chain of sexual allegations known as the "Weinstein Effect," which starts off with Harvey Weinstein, co founder of a major Hollywood studio. Then comes Kevin Spacey, Ben Affleck, and so forth. Don't you find this an odd coincidence or a wee bit suspicious?
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:iconfreeingmyangelwings:
FreeingMyAngelWings Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I am following the whole Weinstein scandal, I know who he is. 

I think it is a coincidence. Women are starting to gain confidence and tell their stories. If you think about it, if this would've came out 10 years ago---everyone would be saying all those women are joking or just lying. Now, we are entering a new era where women are heard and taken seriously. 
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:iconhcshannon:
HCShannon Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
This has more to do with the work environment and its employees. Their main focus as a company is and should be entertaining people and making them happy, especially children, who are their main target audience. Unfortunately, Hollywood is notorious for being corrupt and it's no surprise, this has been going on for like 100 years, it has nothing with how the films are made, that is totally different.
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:iconscottahemi:
ScottaHemi Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
oh. that's news to me. 
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:iconfreeingmyangelwings:
FreeingMyAngelWings Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It was all over the news, but got shadowed by Kevin Spacey and Weinstein. 
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