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Damn it! Why can't apophysis ever finish a render that takes a while? I have the patience to wait a few days for a large render to finish, but not to lose the progress every fucking time! There's something terribly wrong with that renderer. As soon as render time passes a few days, it will just stop functioning out of nothing. This is extremely frustrating and preventing me from posting anything. Should I just, instead, render at lower resolutions and have grain all over the image? I've tried apophysis 7x, but it accepts way less RAM-usage than 2.08 3d. I would try the latest 64-bit 7x by Xyrus, but it doesn't allow plugins, which renders it useless for practically every render (pun intended).
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:iconjanoscheck:
Janoscheck Featured By Owner May 29, 2012   General Artist
Hereīs a hint that might help: If you render at the limit of your available RAM, all of your memory is occupied by system and Apo. So if you are rendering to JPG or PNG there is no memory left to convert (compress) the image to the desired file and the system will hang. To avoid this, just render to a BMP file and everything should work fine ;)
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 29, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thank you for the tip. I already use bmp, and the problems didn't occur when the render finished, could happen anytime. Though now that I have a new computer with new RAM (16 GB) I don't seem to have the problem any more, at least, thus far I haven't had it.
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:iconjanoscheck:
Janoscheck Featured By Owner May 29, 2012   General Artist
BTW.: In these sizes a render quality of max. 10000 (zoom 0)should be absolutely enough. Think about like that: if you render an image sized 5000x5000 with quality 10000, it will have the same density as 25 images sized 1000x1000 rendered with quality 10000. That means, you donīt have to rise quality for bigger images. Indeed, in most cases you can even lower it and will get absolutely satisfactory results ;)
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 29, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
That's not true. You forgot that those 25 images sized 1000Ũ1000 you're talking about are not zoom 0 in this situation. More pixels means that more points need to be calculated to fill up the image well enough, so an increase in quality is needed. You won't necessarily see the difference when you don't view the render at their full size, but if you do, you will see pixels/grain.
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:iconjanoscheck:
Janoscheck Featured By Owner May 29, 2012   General Artist
Believe me, it is true! The value of renderquality is defined to a reference square which is always the same size, no matter what the real image size is. So if the reference square is, letīs say 1000x1000 (I donīt know the actual size), a quality value of 10000 means that there are 10000 calculated points in every 1000x1000 square of the image.
If you really donīt believe it, try it out like this: Render a picture sized 200x200 at quality 1000 and another one sized 400x400 at the same quality and compare the point density. Then shrink the bigger image to 200x200 and you will see that the relative quality of this image is much higher than the smaller render! :)
For details ask xyrus.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 31, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thank you for clarifying that. I've never really understood the quality. But still, at least 30000 is needed.
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:iconakurapare:
AkuraPare Featured By Owner May 6, 2012
on my new 64bit i can use only up to 1.6 gb of the whole huge ram. i still did not try new 15c version for 64bit systems.

do you know this perfect tool [link] ? it helped me to render 6000x6000 with quality 80.000 and os 3 but you must make little changes in flame sometimes. my 4 strips took between 40 and 70 hours but it depends on flame.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 6, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thank you very much for that! I will test it. I hope it really works that well.
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:iconakurapare:
AkuraPare Featured By Owner May 6, 2012
for me it works perfect - tested 4 times. parts where it was joined are not recognizable.

i do not know how to reset perspective and height but i do not use it too often.

left/right/up/down shift must be reset to 0 and achieved with final post-transform move.

be careful to set zoom to 0, i forgot once and did not understand why strips do not fit together.

but you will see...
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2012
I thought I'd try again and I noticed something kind of interesting - this is with 7X 15b.
I set up a render at 5120 x 3840 at quality 124,000, and OS = 2. It was going to take 173 hours so I aborted the render. I was going to lower the quality and try again but I noticed that the amount of memory Apo thought was available was reduced by the amount the original render was going to take, to about 1 GB.
I restarted Apo and the available memory returned to about 2 GB (around the maximum 32 bit XP limitation, I suppose).
So I set the same render job up to use quality 50,000.
It's scheduled to take around 38 hours.
I'll let you know how that goes, but I thought it might help in your situation if you do your large renderings with a completely fresh start up of Apo.
Oh... I'm also only using 2 cores this time.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner Apr 25, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I already restart apophysis for every render and I know the memory bug. Thank you anyway for the help, I really appreciate it.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 26, 2012
Oh Ok. Anyway I learned some things myself. That last render I tried took just under 39 1/2 hours. I think I didn't exactly duplicate your situation though. Were you using other programs that brought total RAM usage up to your system capacity?
I still had plenty of RAM left and in fact I was easily using 3D Hack while rendering the image in 7X 15b.
btw, I don't see the RAM limitation in 7X that you mention. It seems to handle just as much RAM as 3D hack. :?:
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 5, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Strange, on my computer it never allowed equally as much. There were times that I was overusing on RAM and the render crashed, but I'm sure that wasn't always the case. The only time I would reach the 8 GB limit was when I was rendering something in adobe after effects, which is a very heavy program.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner May 5, 2012
Well I didn't really do a "stress test". That's what I meant to say. Maybe it would have turned out differently if I'd tried to render a huge image with 3D hack at the same time.
btw, I've been following your progress with your system at FF - I saw the photos today.
It is a very incredible system!

Also, while I'm thinking about it: did you know that Apo scripts are limited to a single thread? Rendering images from scripts isn't limted - the render uses the number of threads assigned in options - but the operation of the script itself is single threaded only. It's the scripter software that has the limitation; it's not something Apo developers can "fix".
I mention this mainly in case you try Apophymator and think it works poorly on your new system. It should still be faster than on any former system, but probably not as much faster as you might expect. :(
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 6, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks. I used to let apophymator generate a batch of flames (like 3000 in a file for a full video) and then let apophysis them render as usual, but I didn't know the scrips use only one thread.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2012
I'm curious what your rendering specs are.
I think you must be trying to use a very large resolution along with a "quality" setting that is also extraordinarily high.
If you tell me your settings I'll try rendering a flame using them and let you know how it goes.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Usually 5000Ũ3750 with a quality of about 120000. I think it might have something to do with memory errors because I don't have EEC memory, but the strange thing, is that other programs (fractal extreme) are not affected, and they too can use a lot of memory. I found that overusage of RAM immediately kills the render as well. It will go to 0% CPU usage until there is enough memory available again, and then it will continue to use 100% without making any progress. Normally programs should be protected against overusage by the OS, by moving stuff to the hard disk, but for some reason that doesn't work with apophysis. Apophysis also sometimes crashes without any overusage, which thus happens after a few days. I always make use of multithreading: 4 threads for my quad-core processor, intel q6700, 2,67 GHz. Thank you for your reply.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2012
Hmmm... I can't even get close to quality of 120000. That's on 32 bit XP system with 3GB RAM and Intel core i7 920 (8 cores, Apo using 4).
However I started a 4800 x 3600 render at quality 20000 which is scheduled to last about 16 hours.
I'll let you know how it goes...
Generally I've seen really high quality settings like you are trying to use discouraged by Apo devs and others who seem to know the fractal flame algorithm quite well. They tend to say that there is little to be gained from using such high settings.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I should add that 120000 is indeed extreme. That's more for like 8000Ũ6000, which only works with 1 oversample. Here's my latest render a t a quality of 25000:
[link]
On the downloadable high resolution version there's some grain. Actually that's all.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2012
That's a nice one. You could maybe use some very tiny amounts of "blur" (less than 0.005) to smooth out some of the "tube" lines. Same with the little star-flowers. Sometimes, depending on flame construction "blur" variations might work better than plain "blur".
Flam4 also supports very high quality settings, although I can't remember what the resolution limit is. Your flame would have to be compatible, of course.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yeah, I noticed afterwards, now it's too late.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner Apr 23, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
It will finish rendering most likely. I really have only experienced this problem after days. I've had fractals render for more than a week stable though in the past. Instead of waiting for such a long time, I think I will just render at lower quality from now on, more reliable and quicker results.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner Apr 24, 2012
Yes it did finish... in 16 1/4 hours. :)
Maybe if you use lower quality you could also bump up the oversample. I used 1 but then noticed that the memory usage was very low.
I think you know I'm an anim addict so normally I'm rendering frames, and usually those are no larger than 640 x 480.
So this was an interesting experiment for me. I may have to try using higher quality settings for some single images in the future.
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:icondinkydauset:
DinkydauSet Featured By Owner May 17, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I have been rendering the same fractal in apophysis for 4 days now with my new computer (pure render time excluding pauses). It does look like this RAM is more stable already. The program still crashes when too much RAM is being used though, and I still have no idea why this happens. Any other program can go back to work without any problems after having been moved to the storage drive. At least it works stable now, so it seems.
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:iconmorphapoph:
morphapoph Featured By Owner May 19, 2012
Dunno. I think you stress your systems more than I usually would.
Apo has never really been a problem crasher for me. When working on scripts, I sometimes crash the scripter, but that doesn't even bring down Apo, much less the system. I close Apo and restart it and I can use the script editor again.
But I don't render large images while using up the rest of a system's resources doing other things.
The i7 machine I mentioned earlier isn't even connected to the Web.
The crashes you see may need to be resolved inside of Apo anyway.
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