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Note: This poem may seem harsh, but since feminists are allowed to shame men for enjoying harmless entertainment that makes them happy, I don’t see why I should mince words.

If a man complained,
Of romance novel heroes,
He’d be ignored and disdained,
For reading women’s prose.

So if feminists make a scene,
If they yell and fume,
About a comic heroine,
Or her sexy costume,
Or demand they make her fatter,
Who cares what they presume?
Why should it even matter?

But here’s the real paradox:
The weakest female leads,
The feminist never mocks,
For they’re in the books SHE reads.

Does Bella Swan,
To corporate power rise,
Or fight crime with brawn?
Or is she wooed by guys,
Merely acted upon?

Every romance novel cover,
A woman semi nude,
In the arms of her lover,
Submissive to a dude.

I’m not calling her a liar,
But when her own self-insert,
Gets all the male desire,
It doesn’t seem to hurt.

But when she’s outcompeted for attention,
Left alone and cast aside,
That’s when she has to mention,
Women are being OBJECTIFIED!
In case the poem is hard to follow, here's a plain English summary: If a man complained about idealized romance novel heroes, the public would just question why he's reading women's literature in the first place and otherwise pay no attention to him.  So accordingly, there's no reason we should legitimize it when women complain about the female protagonists in entertainment aimed at men.  Furthermore, feminists seldom complain about the portrayal of women in literature for women, even though the women there are still often sexualized and exhibit even less agency.  The pattern seems to be that feminists complain, not when women are presented as objects, but when men's attention is being taken from them.  This isn't just about rivalry among women; when men are being entertained (even when the entertainment is nonsexual) by diversions other than women, such as comic conventions, men become less dependent on women, and women lose social influence.

I was inspired to write this poem while responding to someone in this comment thread on I may live to regret drawing this... by Stephenbyrne.  In it, I explain just one of the many reasons the feminist talking point of the 
objectification of women doesn’t make sense.  For a more in-depth debunking of feminism's concept of objectifying women, please watch I'm a sexy woman, so stop objectifying me! by Karen Straughan.

Also, please check out my more recent work, If a Feminist Were Honest

On Objectification: A Poem Against Feminism mgtow mra Men's Rights
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:iconbomi-bun:
Bomi-Bun Featured By Owner Jul 17, 2017  Professional General Artist
"but since feminists are allowed to shame men for enjoying harmless entertainment that makes them happy"

There's nothing "harmless" about an all you can eat buffet of free hyper stimulating entertainment to pamper the modern male into a spoilt little cuck who gets to see a nice pair of titties at his every whim. 
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:iconshirkee:
Shirkee Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2016
I wont read all this wall-text coments, but I read your poem and it is stupid :)
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:iconshirkee:
Shirkee Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2016
"hen men are being entertained (even when the entertainment is nonsexual) by diversions other than women, such as comic conventions, men become less dependent on women, and women lose social influence." - oh so if men is not interested in me (thanks GOD! I hate them!) I dont have social influence Yeah Thats why I NEED Feminism, cuz I want influence without MEN!
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2016
Hello! I'm back with another actual honest reason why feminism should exist. <3 <3 From anon, not me, I have lots more don't you fuss. Seriously, though, every time I get a notification on the cosplay reference website I'm like, OK, time to copypaste some apparently revolutionary and never-before-seen stuff, yeesh

Like this is just normal human desires, because this is downright unreasonable. And yes, this has happened to me before, on buses and starbucks primarily. It's no good. (I'm still amazed at how many stranger dudes (never girls, mind, because we respect eachother??) just stroke my hair when I'm doing actions like waiting for a movie, waiting for a ticket, walking, waiting to scan my food items, and also drinking at a water fountain, though that is a slightly different problem)

For guys, random touching and also the problem below is a sexist origins thing that shows a great lack of respect and also a lack of education. 

------

Dear Strange Man on the Train,

At 11 o’clock at night, you moved across the train car to sit far too close to two girls about half your age so you could interrupt our conversation to tell us how pretty we are. We said thank you, have a good night, and went back to our conversation.

You interrupted us a second time to say that you didn’t want to bother us, but we needed to hear it, how pretty we are. We said cool, thanks, have a good night, and went back to our conversation.

You interrupted us a third time to say you wouldn’t say anything else, you didn’t want to bother us, you just had to let us know. We said have a good night, and went back to our conversation.

This seemed to perplex you. You came all that way across a train car to bestow upon us this life altering knowledge - the fact we were pretty - and all you got was a polite thank you? You grumbled about gratitude, about how you better not end up on facebook, were we putting you on facebook? Why was my friend looking at her phone? Was she putting you on facebook? All you’d done was tell us we were pretty.

At this point, my friend says, “Sir, we’re trying to have a conversation. Please don’t be disrespectful.”

This was when you got angry. Disrespectful? YOU? For taking the time out of your day to tell us we were pretty? Did we know we were pretty?

“Yes, we knew,” says my friend.

Well, that was the last straw. How dare we know we were pretty! Sure, you were allowed to tell us we were pretty, but we weren’t allowed to think it independently, without your permission! And if we had somehow already known - perhaps some other strange man had informed us earlier in the day - we certainly weren’t allowed to SAY it! Where did we get off, having confidence in ourselves? You wanted us to know we were pretty, sure, but only as a reward for good behavior. We were pretty when you gifted it upon us with your words, and not a moment before! You raged for a minute about how horrible we were for saying we thought we were pretty, how awful we turned out to be.

I took a page out of your book and interrupted you. “Sir, you said you wouldn’t say anything else, and then you kept talking,” I said. “You complimented us, we said thank you, and we don’t owe you anything else. It’s late, you’re a stranger, and I don’t want to talk to you. We’ve tried to disengage multiple times but you keep bothering us.”

At this point, our train pulled into the next stop. My friend suggested we leave, so we got up and went to the door.

Seeing your last chance, you lashed out with the killing blow. “I was wrong!” you shouted at us as we left, “You’re ugly! You’re both REALLY UGLY!”

Fortunately, since our worth as human beings is in no way dependent upon how physically attractive you find us, my friend and I were unharmed and continued on with our night. She walked home; I switched to the next train car and sat down.

So, strange man, I know you’re confused. I don’t know if you’ll think about anything I said to you, but I hope you do learn this: when you give someone something - a gift, a compliment, whatever - with stringent stipulations about how they respond to it, you are not giving anything. You are setting a trap. It is not as nice as you think it is.

But you’ll be happy to know that when I sat down in the next car, a strange man several seats over called, “Hey, pretty girl. Nice guitar. How was your concert?”

“Thanks. Good,” I said, then looked away and put on my headphones, the universal sign for ‘I’d like to be left alone.’

“Wow. Fine. Whatever. Fucking bitch,” he said.

RESPONSE: 

Fucking creepers. May I ask how feminism or anything similar would actually have prevented this from happening? This ya already socially unacceptable.


RESPONSE:

Men - because to be clear, I called them ‘strange men’ because they were strangers to me, not because there was anything abnormal about them - act this way because they are raised in a culture that lets them believe their time and opinions are more important than the time and opinions of women, and that as a consequence, they are owed women’s attention. They are socialized to believe women should be grateful to them for their attention, and that they are being denied something rightfully theirs when women are not.

Raising someone with feminism, the idea that all sexes/genders are equals and thus no party is beholden to or more important than another, would have prevented this by not allowing men to grow up expecting ‘rights’ that are not actually theirs. You say this is socially unacceptable, but there were 20+ people on that train who actively watched us being harassed and did not say a word. It is socially unacceptable, but this kind of thing happens to me and many other women multiple times a week, with often more traumatic results.

So, yes, I believe more feminism would prevent sexist moments like this. Also, water is wet, the atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, and cheese is addictive.

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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Edited Apr 3, 2016
Here's another more accurate: an honest reason for feminism from a source that will remain anonymous because I frankly can't imagine the kind of abuse some assholes would rain down upon her for merely saying, "wow, this sure is fucked up."

Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem

I am a gamer. I followed the call of Cthulhu and ran in the shadows with hackers and shamans. I traversed the ancient lands of Greyhawk, Faerun, and Eberron with companions new and old. I swung from an airship and buckled swash over London for the Kerberos Club. I threw dice and flipped cards and ground men into dust playing table-top wargames.

I don’t do that anymore.

Since July of 2015 fans of the game Malifaux have been attempting to overwhelm me with death and rape threats for no other reason than I am a woman who has opinions on the game. Wyrd Miniatures is silent on this matter and hangs up whenever anyone attempts to discuss the harassment. Given that a large number of threats identify the senders by name as Wyrd staff members, I do not find this surprising.

But that’s not what this article is about.

This isn’t the first time I’ve received an avalanche of threats from pathetic and insecure men. It isn’t the second time or even the third or fourth. At this point, I know that if I speak out against the abuses myself and my friends have suffered as a result of our participation in the “friendly gaming community” I can expect to be silenced with extreme prejudice. Section 83.01 of the Criminal Code of Canada defines terrorism as an act committed “in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause” and with the intention of intimidating the public “…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act.”

Astute readers will note there is no specific provision for internet harassment, although death threats are one of the most prominent and effective ways of driving women and POC from communities. While the topic of online harassment has centred around white women, it is not uncommon for any minority to receive death threats and other forms of intimidation when they express their concerns with the gaming community’s acceptance of racist, sexist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted behaviour.

++++
I am thirteen years old and in a game store for the first time. I examine their selection of dice and take them to the counter to pay.

“How old are you?” asks the balding, middle-aged man behind the counter.

“Thirteen.”

“Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!” he chuckles in glee. The Warhammer 40K gamers at the table behind him take up the refrain. “Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed! Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!”

I run.
++++

Make no mistake that this is terrorism. The men who e-mail me rape threats have a vested interest in anyone perceived as “lesser” being expelled from the community. And the tragic thing is that it works.

Law enforcement is woefully unequipped for dealing with the multiple-jurisdiction headache of online harassment. Most police are unwilling to file a report without a name, address, and IP number and many regard “cyber-bullying” as unimportant. When combined with the sexist attitudes towards women and sexual assault, reporting rape threats is almost impossible.

++++
I am at Keycon, waiting for a friend to finish her Shadowrun game. One of my male friends hands me a pepsi. I take it and thank him.

I wake up in a hotel bed I don’t remember. A man’s hand is inside me, jabbing and painful. I try to scream but nothing comes out. I try to move but I cannot. After what feels like a lifetime, I stagger away, ripping his hand out of my jeans. The convention whirls around me like a nightmare kaleidoscope as I beg for help. Eventually, someone takes me aside.

“This is a safe convention. We have a reputation to protect. If you go to the police, we’ll say you were never here.”

I nod numbly. I think I am crying, but no tears fall. I stumble into a bathroom in the lobby coffee shop and sob until I can’t breathe. When I am calm, I call the police and report the attack.

“You sound drunk. Were you drinking? I’m not filing a report for some drunken slut.” The officer hangs up.

I have no more tears.
++++

Many men are under the fallacious assumption the police exist to serve and protect the population. They do not. They exist to keep the peace. Often this means intimidating women out of filing reports or pressing charges. I have no idea why this is the case. I only have twenty years of attempting to report gendered violence and having my concerns ignored. This is not a well-kept secret and the terrorists know this. They know that any woman attempting to report harassment or assault faces uphill battle and they count on it.

++++
It is 2009. A man at my game store has been sexually harassing me, talking about how much fun he would have raping me. When no one is in the store, he traps me against a wall and rubs his genitals against me. I call the police.

“This is a matter for your manager. If he touches you on the street, then you can call us.” The officer hangs up.

The owner refuses to expel the creep and fires me instead. Three years later I win a precedent-setting human rights case against him.
++++

What is shocking to me is that I am not particularly visible. I do not create, write about, or otherwise engage in gaming culture. Due to the years of persistent sexual harassment and threats, I maintain an incredibly low social profile and try to avoid gendering myself online. Just think for a moment how fucked up it is that I am not free to post about my hobbies, interests, or day to day life because I am a woman and the gaming community is so dangerous.

++++
It is 2015 and I am reporting the harassment to the RCMP.

“Is this like that WaterGame thing?” asks the officer. I smile in relief.

“Yes. Yes, it’s a lot like that.”

The officer sighs, “We’d have a lot less work if women just stayed away from dangerous, psychopathic losers.” I look at the evidence in front of me. I don’t disagree.

In every discussion of online harassment you will find men telling women to call the police. What you don’t hear is the police telling women to stay away from gaming communities for their own safety. What would gamers say if they knew that police told women to avoid game stores the same way they avoid frat houses?

“Why is this so important to you, anyway?” The officer is blunt, but I appreciate it.

“It’s my hobby. I love it. I’ve been doing this for twenty years.”

Her response cuts me to my core, “Find another hobby or you’re going to die.”
+++++

The response to the rampant sexual assault in the gaming hobby is predictably misogynistic. Women are expected to train themselves in self-defence and anything less is regarded as “irresponsible” on their part. This attitude is illogical, irrational, and deeply callous as it does not address the basic fact that, by the time a woman is forced to defend herself from sexual assault, a crime has already been committed against her person. Worse, any woman who has defended herself from sexual harassment in the gaming community can tell you that her self-defence was a precursor to ostracism as the men in the community embraced the predator and expelled his victim for “creating drama”. As if the perpetrator of the crime wasn’t responsible for the “drama” in the first place!

Amid the rise of lone wolf terrorism it is important for the ethical, responsible members of the gaming community to address and put a stop to it before anyone is harmed. Credit for foiling a potential mass shooting at thePokemon World Championship goes to an unnamed forum moderator who had the sense to notice the dangerous, violent rhetoric of his posters and alert the authorities. How many sexual assaults could be prevented in the gaming community by men extending that same concern to women?

White male terrorism is the white underbelly of the gaming community, meant to terrify and disrupt the lives of those who threaten the status quo by race, gender, or sexuality. It succeeds because the majority of men in the community are too cowardly to stand against the bullies and the terrorists. At best, these cowards ignore the problem. At worst, they join the terrorists in blaming their victims for the abuse. The point of online terrorism is that it is endless, omnipresent, and anonymous. I have no way of knowing whether the person with whom I’m gaming is safe or the person who wants to “slit [my] throat and fuck the gash until [I] drown in cum”. Knowing that the person sending those e-mails could be anyone and the community will not support me if/when I am attacked keeps myself and many others from the hobby.

The majority of gamers do not engage in online terrorism, but are instead complicit in lower levels of harassment. It is almost impossible to convince gamers that sexist and racist jokes are unacceptable and that they make others uncomfortable and drive people off. Indeed, raising this issue at all often results in threats and more terrorism. It is unsurprising then that people with conscience have come together to create Hater FreeWednesdays/Saturdays—a master list of comic and game stores and their relative safety for women and minorities.

Gamers bemoan the loss of the local game store while ignoring their culpability for its demise. Amazon is blamed for the death of local game stores, but few gamers stop to question why so many people are choosing to buy social games in such an asocial manner.

++++
It is 2009 and an aboriginal woman is looking at the metal miniatures on the wall. My co-worker helps her as I stock the display shelves.

“Do you have any models that look like me?” the woman asks.

“We only have normal models,” my co-worker titters, “I can order you the noble savage.”

The woman leaves. We never see her again.
++++
It is 2010 and a young black man with a backpack is talking to me about the comparative merits of Pathfinder vs D&D 4th Edition. I tell him we have drop in games and wave him over to a group currently playing.

“Sup, my n*****!” the white men shout.

I apologise but the man is already out the door. I report the incident to the owner.

“I’m not throwing away good customers just because someone is oversensitive.”
++++
It is 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and hands are on my ass and breasts and all over my body. Groping, fondling, feeling whatever they please.

The smell of print comics gives me flashbacks now.
++++
It is May and I am discussing the problem with gamers and harassment with friends over dinner.

“It’s strange to talk about a moral event horizon,” my friend says as he sips his beer, “but when this dude invited me to his house to play Pimp: the Backhanding that was the end of the friendship.”

Another man nods, “I used to really enjoy trading card games, but the community is so hateful I can’t bring any of my friends. Why play a game with people you can’t stand, right?”

“Everything changed when I had a daughter,” says a third, “whenever someone makes a joke, I think about them directing it at her. I can’t let my daughter grow up around those attitudes.”
++++
It is 2005 and I am arguing with my future husband about women in gaming.

“Women game as much as men,” I say, “they just don’t do it in public and don’t game with self-identified gamers because it’s too dangerous.”

“That’s not what my experience in the hobby has been.”

“Wait and see.”
++++
It is 2008 and women who have never gamed fight for a spot at our table. We play with a politician, a lawyer, a chemist, and many others. Most of us are women, although some are genderqueer. We commiserate over stories of groping and sexism at our “friendly” local game stores and laugh at the notion that women don’t game.

In 2014, when I can’t run games anymore, they splinter off into several different groups. They buy everything online and never set foot in game stores. They’ve learned the hard lessons.
++++
It is 2007 and I am discussing the comparative merits of the Circle Orboros versus the Legion of Everblight when I hear a loud crack and a sharp pain in my rear. I jump and shriek in fury.

“Relax, it’s a compliment,” says the Pressganger.

I curse out the offending player.

“Look, you can’t play with us if you’re going to get emotional over every little thing.” The rest of the players nod in agreement.

I leave. It will be a cold day in hell before Privateer Press gets any of my money.
++++

The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious to everyone except straight white men. GamergateSad Puppies, and the necessity of the Cosplay is NOT Consent movement, to name just a few, have brought to light the dangerously retrograde ideas espoused by the gaming community. If gamers didn’t think the harassment was justified or warranted, they would speak out against it. That the community and industry as a whole choses to remain silent in the face of widespread public condemnation of its bigotry speaks volumes.

Gamers want to believe that they are logical, sensible, and rational. But there is nothing logical, sensible, or rational about making your peers and customers run a gauntlet of bigotry for the dubious privilege of playing a game in a space where people like you (and the people sympathetic to you) are despised. When confronted with bigotry in the community, it costs nothing—indeed, I argue it is the moral imperative of the community—to shut it down clearly and unequivocally. “We are aware that some of our fans have had negative experiences in the community. Let it be known that Company/Store does not stand for any racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted behaviour. We care about providing a healthy and competitive gaming scene for everyone. If we see or hear any abuse, the offending player will be reprimanded, and, if necessary, expelled for an indefinite duration.”

Feel free to steal that, gamers. You don’t even need to credit me.

Harassment in nerd hobbies has been quantified and studied and the results are appalling. 25% of the respondents reported harassment, 13% reported unwelcome sexual comments, and 8% reported groping, sexual assault, or rape. If 13% of SDCC attendees receive unwelcome sexual comments, that’s over 17,000 people being sexually harassed every convention. You would have to be an idiot to think none of these people are going to talk to each other, and cavernously evil to dismiss everyone as lying. As for sexual assault? That’s over 10,000 people being groped at SDCC, and it doesn’t count people who are groped more than once. Many of my friends have given up their once-beloved con circuit because they can no longer deal with, as one prominent cosplayer put it, “men handling me like a piece of meat”.

++++
It is 2005 and I am at I-Con. I duck into the wargaming room looking for a demo and a place to spend my money. I lean over a table to get a better look at the game in progress and feel a hand slide up my skirt. I scream and turn around, but everyone is staring at their tables, heads down over their games.

“Someone grabbed my ass!”

The man doing the demo rolls his eyes, “Quit making stuff up. You don’t need the attention.”

I roll my eyes back and leave. That night, I find a constellation of five bruises on my ass.
++++

Men can shout all they like that #notallmen harass women, but as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a “sense of humour” (implying that women who don’t like being groped are somehow at fault), #allmen are complicit in the harassment. Predators rely on other people thinking they’re joking, and when gamers make jokes like “sleeping girls can’t say no”, those predators feel safe and welcomed in the community, while their victims are forced to flee for their safety. Even if the woman does press charges, the police report goes nowhere without the rest of the community willing to testify on her behalf instead of protecting their rapey friend. Predators know this, which is one of the many reasons “Go to the police!” is the constant refrain to shut down ANY discussion of safety in gaming.

Even though it always results in a deluge of threats, I am committed to speaking about my experiences with sexual assault, harassment, and rape in the gaming hobby. The most heartbreaking thing is that every time I do, I receive dozens of messages from men and women who have endured the same and do not feel they can speak up because the community is so hostile to their reality. I’ve heard from several people who, when trying to discuss their sexual assault, have it treated like a joke and laughed at by members of the community. I can’t think of better evidence that the gaming community is far too tolerant of goddamn monsters.

When the majority of gamers refuse to speak up in support of those marginalised, they send the message that the hobby is full of bullies and they like it that way. “There are assholes in every group” is the rallying cry, yet that statement is nonsense to anyone who has spent the barest amount of time cultivating a healthy community. “Asshole behaviour” only persists because the majority of men are too cowardly to call the assholes what they are. The women who speak up against bullying and assault are treated as solely responsible for their safety, while cowards pretend that “staying neutral” is a virtue instead of tacitly condoning the rampant harassment and bigotry. The gaming community has some of the worst excesses of rape culture outside of a Duggar convention.

But if you can’t hear it from a woman, maybe you can hear it from a man.

What can men do? They can support and believe women, POC, and anyone else marginalised by the hobby at large. They can refuse to stand for assholes in their community. There are good men who know their friends’ stories, but are fearful of sharing them lest their friends receive harassment. You don’t need to share the details. You only need to share that you know it’s a problem. (The aggressive digging into trauma is a bullying tactic meant to further silence and traumatise the victims. Do not fall for it.) I truly believe that if the good men in the community have the courage to stand up for what’s right, they can change the image of a gamer from a slavering neckbearded rapist anonymously e-mailing women death threats to something more positive.

As for Wyrd, despite this egregious and dangerous misstep I want to believe their hearts are in the right place. Call them at (678) 355-5055 or fill out a feedback form and let them know that you want a game free from harassment. If only they spent as much effort protecting their female fans from harassment as they do themselves from criticism.


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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 4, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
And look at that, the person you've quoted has been demonstrated to be a liar in this very case: i.imgur.com/X1amFDz.jpg
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 3, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
"Here's another more accurate: an honest reason for feminism from a source that will remain anonymous because I frankly can't imagine the kind of abuse some assholes would rain down upon her for merely saying"

You mean this article here latining.tumblr.com/post/14156…

An as was pointed out a couple of hours ago, this article you linked to was entirely bullshit. Take this statement for instance

“You sound drunk. Were you drinking? I’m not filing a report for some drunken slut.” The officer hangs up.


This statement is 100% bullshit. If you've phoned the police regardless of if you call direct to the police switchboard, or trough 911, you will not be talking to an officer, you will be talking to a civilian contractor & those calls are not just monitored, they are recorded, literally every single one of them.


So the statement is 100% objectively false.


An since we've already established that this statement is false, either her other statements are so hyperbolic as to be useless, or just straight up didn't happen & are entirely fabricated.

Nice try at the copy and stick though, it was almost like you had a point, minus having a point. Would you like to go find someone elses opinion to copy and stick, or are you done for today?

Reply
:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Edited Apr 5, 2016
Sorry guy 100% bullshit does not rely on your opinion of what should have happened. What possible proof could she provide? I believe it because it's happened to me. The point is: it should not happen, understand? This is bad. There's no reason to lie about it. 

I feel like I typed this somewhere else but where does it say she lied? The guy just didn't get a response from her and is offended that she had bad stuff happen to her. He also feels personally victimized by the fact she was harassed by guys, which is ridiculous and kind of is self demonstrative of the overarching problem. 

I went into a gaming store and came out ruffled from same shit as this. I've been to gaming stores and haven't been harassed as well, but one kind of expects that as a matter of course. That still doesn't equate to the fact the sexual harassy gaming stores somehow don't exist with a strong vengeance and also disturbing unpredictableness. How many guys have told me to "get used to it," or "smile" or "it's a compliment" when they go to touch my butt? I go into walmart and I'm groped. I'm in line at a restaurant and some guy starts patting my hair. I'm in line for a movie theatre and some guy full on just leans on me with the excuse he is drunk and doesn't let go until I face him in a fake ass martial arts stance. I've been followed straight into my apartment building until I literally start screaming, which no one likes to do while walking home, it's downright inconvenient. I dislike taxis because the guy just talks about sex sex sex with or without my input. I go to the gas station and I get the worst marriage proposal from some guy I've never even seen in my life and he follows my car out the station. I go to the train station and some guy starts cussing me out for being on the phone, literally for that and not I dunno, looking at him like I love him. Some total stranger I've never seen in my life! He follows me for an entire block as I stick a finger in one ear and press the phone to the other so I can hear what my mom is saying. 

Don't get me wrong, I support competent law enforcement. Unfortunately, due to reality, stuff like this happens. Infamously. Interrogation on the rape victim, dismissal of the domestic abuse call. I get to read all about it straight from the trial records. Police officers just hanging up or not believing or telling you it's your problem. Police men, as the little ancedote was pointing out a bit obviously, are also subject to human bias and therefore error. Recently, wasn't there that incident where a black boy getting shot called 911 and the responder thought he was joking? www.newsweek.com/911-dispatche…\
off the top of my head. Here, I did some first result google for you, because I am a nice person and I appreciate you went through research efforts to prove whatever frankly messy point you were trying to make with all this. 
I call it googling: police response to sexual assault
www.google.com/search?num=20&n…

www.policeforum.org/assets/doc…

www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/…

you know what, there are too many. Go find it yourself. 

You will observe how all the articles are titled, "improving police response to sexual assault" which implies, yes, indeed, there are actually inadequate responses to sexual assault. You optimistic pansy. Get with the program. 

www.policeforum.org/assets/doc…


And it's worse with 'friends.' They're the ones who put their fingers all over you when you are doing this like eating, homework, or leaving a bathroom. Where "no" means "playing hard to get." It's sex sex sex all the time, and it's so fucking annoying! Who taught these boys this? Why is this happening? 

And let me guess: this has never happened to you, and is therefore UNBELIEVABLE.

I feel as if I spend a good percentage of my outings being touched and groped against my will and frankly that fact annoys me much more than it annoys you. Oftentimes I feel as if I'm one 911 call from being k. 

And if your only argument against this is that what she is saying could not possibly be real, (because it disturbs you such injustices could exist) then I ask you: what if it was? What if every word she said was truth?


Don’t go through such lengths to justify that disgusting behavior. At least be aware it exists, and it speaks more to your general knowledge of history, context, and also reality when one can not hysterically scream liar at every fact that disrupts happiness. 


It’s not a personal attack. It’s just stating a fact you may not be aware of. The rest of this addresses some other comment you made I can't be bothered to seek out. 


If you think suffrage was popular and well received amongst men, you would be lying. 

Look up the comics running in all the newspapers. Suffragettes were hysterically espoused as home-wrecking crazy ugly unmarriable troublemakers. “What are they saying, injustice exists? Unforgivable! Next they’ll be saying men can stay at home, and women can have working jobs!”


Such horror. 


In a historical context, sexism definitely definitely existed. Women as a rule were barred from entering sports teams, trash jobs, the military. There have been laws trying to amend this as recently as 2016. 


So anyway this leads to your dubious motivations as to putting up a link to her public blog when I expressly didn’t, knowing you could google it if you so wished. 


This woman knew when she was putting up this post that it would not be taken well. Because, as you can see, whenever a woman dares intimate that ameritopia isn’t as perfect as previously believed, she invites upon her person a shitload of bullshit, enough to bathe in, enough to live in, enough to affect her real life. It would invite death threats, stalking, harassment real and online, and possibly actual attack, despite not actually inviting it at all. As evidenced time and time again. Look lively now, feminist is the new dirty word. Who cares about reality and definitions? “What she is saying disturbs me, thus she MUST be lying. She's also part of a conspiracy, since she said the same thing I heard somewhere else.”


Knowing this, and posting it anyway, why do you think this would happen? 

There is no benefit in it for her to make a blog post about a problem she noticed. 

The post doesn’t really affect you in any way. And yet. 


Nothing quite stimulates a belief for equality quite like one man raining sexism on one side and another telling you "everything's fine, there is no problem" on the other. No one comes out of the womb expecting sexism. 


It starts when a girl is told to sit still and look pretty and find a husband in college, and the boy next to her listens. That kind of condescension is learned. 


It starts when a girl says, “why is this happening?” and the boy shrugs, “I don’t see the problem.” 

Well, of course he doesn’t, it's literally not happening to him. I wonder when the fact that this complaint is constant and widespread speaks more to the fact the problem is constant and widespread rather than the shadowy monster named Feminism is Conspiring Against You for Reasons Unknown but possibly related to Pure Evil. 


The first step in solving a problem (sexism) is admitting there is a problem (sexism), so at least promote a general awareness. I mean, is it really so horrible to give the only two women personality as well as boobs in the video games? What’s the big deal? It leads to a better story in the end anyway. 


Please. Straw man me some more. 

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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Try again, but this time right an actual rebuttal to the actual points.

Because pointing out that the police updating their response to sexual assault is not a rebuttal of the fact that no point in the last 50 years would a cop hang up of someone reporting a sexual assault because they are a "drunk slut" or the fact that police swithboards have been manned by civilian telephonists since the early 80's.
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 8, 2016
It's like you don't read
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:iconinsultsuperwholock:
insultsuperwholock Featured By Owner Mar 30, 2016  Professional Filmographer
<EDGY><SIZE=TIDDIES> DAM!!!!N NOW THAT'SE DGY <BOLD>
 Blinking Evil Dafne 2 Blinking Evil Dafne 2 Blinking Evil Dafne 2 Blinking Evil Dafne 2 Blinking Evil Dafne 2 Shadow Shadow Shadow Shadow 
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:iconionoid:
ionoid Featured By Owner Mar 13, 2016
I support the beating of anti-feminists.
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:iconrubyrebecca123:
rubyrebecca123 Featured By Owner May 3, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
oh boy what an upstanding example of equality we've managed to capture here!
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:iconionoid:
ionoid Featured By Owner Edited May 3, 2016
Equality doesn't mean allowing stuff like this. By your "logic", we should allow stamps which support slavery.
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:iconrubyrebecca123:
rubyrebecca123 Featured By Owner May 3, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
so your comparing a poem pointing out the hypocrisy of entertainment mediums to someone supporting the cruel treatment of another human being...

Christ on a bike, why do I even bother to reply?
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:iconionoid:
ionoid Featured By Owner Edited May 3, 2016
I wonder the same thing myself, why did you reply to my comment? If you never replied to my comment, I would have remained ignorant of your existence and you'd never hear a word outta my mouth, at least not directed towards you.

I think its best if you leave.

Oh and by the way, yes, they are on the same level, they're just on different magnitudes, but are just as bad as one another. Both will need to be eradicated.
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:iconhatooteh:
Hatooteh Featured By Owner Mar 4, 2016  Student Artist
Nice poem
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:iconchinesegal:
Chinesegal Featured By Owner Feb 10, 2016
Actually, Twilight and feminism don't usually go well together.
Search feminism and Twilight in any search engine, and you will find loads of feminists explaining why Twilight is shit.
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:iconcataclyptic:
Cataclyptic Featured By Owner Jan 25, 2016  Student Digital Artist
Agree with most of it except for one bit: for comic books (or insert whatever you want here), women do tend to read them and being a comic artist myself I completely understand the need to not sexually objectify them within the art.

However as you have said, the standard does exist on the opposite end as well. In a lot of romance novels the women do tend to find an idealized version of romance (and an idealized man usually). Yet, some don't notice the double standard. 

I guess in conclusion both genders and sexes should recognize that fantasy is fantasy, as I have seen numerous examples on both sides wherein the person takes fixtion too seriously. 
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:iconionoid:
ionoid Featured By Owner Edited Dec 24, 2015
All MRA's are misogynists, fuck you. All anti-feminists must die.
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:iconspikezero49:
spikezero49 Featured By Owner Apr 4, 2017  Student Traditional Artist
How tolerant of you
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2016
Uh calm yourself
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:iconluvluvhurts:
LuvLuvHurts Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2015
Note: This poem may seem harsh, but since feminists are allowed to shame men for enjoying harmless entertainment that makes them happy, I don’t see why I should mince words.

Shame men? Feminism means that you should treat people equally! Corrupted feminists are the ones who shames men!

I am not trying to insult you in any way. I'm just saying. Besides, I am just a child.
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:iconapeirial:
Apeirial Featured By Owner Apr 2, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
I agree. One problem though, just because someone labels themselves doesn't make themselves instantly part of any ideology.
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:iconionoid:
ionoid Featured By Owner Dec 24, 2015
I agree.
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:iconprincess0kitty:
princess0kitty Featured By Owner Oct 10, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
Also I went to a thrift store and in the book section I saw like twenty twilights and do want to know how many Harry Potter books I saw just two you know why because good writing will always sell better than a dull bitch and her two muscle-bound manly men! 
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Jul 8, 2015
Ok, I can appreciate your points and feelings, but I really think you are overlooking certain aspects of your own arguments. 

A romanticized man, in trashy romance novels, is described as dark, lustful, tall, strong, liable to kill, serious, and moody. A romanticized woman, almost universally, is described as a beam of starlight coalesced into the form of a women, ruby red lips and sparkling eyes, liable to betray, and soulful cries for help. The difference is women are reinforced as weaker. And men are reinforced as stronger. 

These are both bad, and both contribute to stupid gender stereotypes, but do you see how maybe more women then men might get actually physically hurt from this reinforcement? It encourages the idea men have to go out and 'take' their women (object) and the idea that women should go out and wait for their man. But when the fairytale doesn't play out like that, it ends up like harassment from the man and frightening for the woman.

 As for being yelled at for reading 'woman' books, that's no good. Women books should be considered just as valid as man books. 

-----

Supergirl with a boob window and superman with no butt window is a little insulting, but otherwise allowable. 

But when it goes to "we can't animate women" "women like this show so we have to cancel this" "are you crazy why would we degrade this character by making him not wear clothes" "we made the proportions on this fighting game woman less ridiculous but now all the entitled nerds are angry and trying to say women don't play games so whats the point" It just becomes straight out insulting. 

The constant bombardment of women with maybe just their nips covered and how women NEVER get sexy outfits on men video game characters is just an inequality. I would like to see sephorith with just a speedo and nip covers just as much as the next girl but he gets treated with respect, unlike almost every girl video game character ever. There's a difference between being sexy and always being FORCED and expected to the point of being insulted and harassed for NOT wearing just the nips to be sexy, which is the bigger societal result. 

-----------

I don't know where you were looking, but every woman I know universally loathes Twilight. Not for the lead, though she is considered dull and crazy, much like her sparkles boyfriend, but because the writing is bad. And yes? Women get criticized for this all the time?

I actually don't know what you're getting at here. 

----------

Er, fantasy is different from real life. Some women like the fantasy of having a muscly confident man dote on them, because that's what's encouraged societally. I also think there should be more books where a naked man is hefted, half faint, over the shoulder of a warring pirate woman who pampers him-- that IS feminism! Because of these gender stereotypes, men are considered wrong to want strong women. So yes, totally agree with you here. 


Conclusion: when the end result is harmful, just suck it up and admit it's bad until there is actually equality. 
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:iconmisperception:
Misperception Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
Okay, I know this is like, way late, but I was pretty ticked off about an incredibly offensive, crude, uncalled for comment made towards me earlier, have been getting more and more sick of this type of thing, and am kind of in a "feminist mood," so I happened upon this while browsing. Long, unnecessary explanation aside, I completely agree with EVERYTHING you said. All of it was extremely intelligent and, in my opinion, right on the mark. I hate all of the idiotic, trashy romance novels so much, and all of the gender-stereotyping in society. I hate the, "You must be submissive and sexy, pretty and perfect, or you won't be desirable or worth anything in your life" message that's so prevalent today. It's disgusting, degrading, and devaluing. And it's there because of everything you mentioned, and more. Many people don't talk about it, but more people ARE talking about it, and I think that's important.

Anyway, got kind of carried away. Just wanted to say I agree and express my appreciation for your intelligence and insight.
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:iconcrapcarp:
Crapcarp Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2015  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I just realized how you're merely one step away from enlightenment. It's like, you're on the edge, but there's just a little something that holds you back.

I feel sorry for you, honestly. You're not stupid, just indoctrinated.
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Nov 12, 2015
I'm hearing this from some guy arguing with me on the internet about the voices in his head telling him I'm saying stuff but I actually really mean other stuff, and won't even admit it without blustering like an idiot child for ten youtube links, and then falling over himself on the internet.  

Thanks for your opinion. You're a moron. 
See ya. 
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:iconcrapcarp:
Crapcarp Featured By Owner Nov 12, 2015  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Okay, I take it back, you have no redeeming qualities. Thanks for lowering my faith in humanity.
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:iconprincess0kitty:
princess0kitty Featured By Owner Oct 10, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
Amen! and dude who wrote this poem I fucking hate twilight do not insult me by saying I might like that shitty written piece of anus!
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:iconthe-green-gallad:
the-green-gallad Featured By Owner Jul 7, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Feminist by Dametora  
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:iconnabium:
Nabium Featured By Owner Jun 10, 2014
either I misunderstood your poem, or all the people making simple comments are morons. is it just me, or does your inteligence seems to go far above their heads...

my opinion on feminism in general, is that although a lot of early feminist theory is horrible(like when kristeva, irigaray or others proclaim the freudian notion that woman are lesser than men and should therefore strive to fit the role of th man) - feminism once served an important role(and still does in many places). but my opinion is certainly also that today one ought to focus on equality for the individual. gender, race, religion etc is secondary stuff. some feminist today are often very hypocritical.

btw, can any angry feminist tell me - why can woman wear pants and dresses but guys always have to wear a suit? surely, it's the role of the man that is the most narrow today. if a man is horrible in a relationship he is demonized - and rightly so - but if a girl is horrible, the society just laugh at the man for "not being man enough". particularly pornography is very bad for young boys as the men in pornography is much more stereotypical than the girls and also boys watch more of it, yet I've never heard anyone mention that, everyone is only concerned about what porn does to the mind of the precious little girls.
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Nov 13, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
" feminism once served an important role"

No it really didn't. essentially everything you think feminism has achieved was actually achieved by other people & even if that was not the case, the good things ones ideology does, does not eradicate the evil things ones ideology does.
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:iconapeirial:
Apeirial Featured By Owner Apr 2, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
Whether you like it or not, feminism did once serve a function in western society.
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 3, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Except the only function feminism has ever served has been as a special interest group. Feminism has NEVER functioned as an equality movement. By the same logic the Klu Klux Klan has also served a function, it was a group for racist, homophobic anti-Semites.... Don't mistake having a function for having a USEFUL function.
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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 3, 2016
I can't believe you just compared suffrage to racism. Get over yourself. 

Suffrage was getting "the RIGHT to vote," among many, many, many, many other things. 

The KKK is devoted to killing black people. You moron.
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Edited Apr 3, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
"I can't believe you just compared suffrage to racism."

Except that sufferage wasn't achieved  by feminists. Lots of people were working towards women getting the right to vote, feminism wasn't required for that at all. In fact many places gave women the right to vote BEFORE suffrage, even in the united states and the U.K. Heck in Australia suffrage was achieved totally without suffragettes whatsoever, 2 years after all men got the right to vote & by exactly the same group of politicians.

As for comparing specifically suffrage with racism, let me share some great quotes from famous suffragettes with you.


Belle Kearney, 1863-1939 (Orator, novelist, Mississippi state senator)
“The enfranchisement of women would insure immediate and durable white supremacy, honestly attained, for upon unquestioned authority it is stated that in every southern State but one there are more educated women than all the illiterate voters, white and black, native and foreign, combined. As you probably know, of all the women in the South who can read and write, ten out of every eleven are white. When it comes to the proportion of property between the races, that of the white outweighs that of the black immeasurably.”


Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 1815-1902 (Social activist, abolitionist, author)
“What will we and our daughters suffer if these degraded black men are allowed to have the rights that would make them even worse than our Saxon fathers?”


Laura Clay, 1849-1940 (Founder of Kentucky’s first suffrage group)
“The white men, reinforced by the educated white women, could ‘snow under’ the Negro vote in every State, and the white race would maintain its supremacy without corrupting or intimidating the Negroes.”


Frances Willard, 1839-1898 (Feminist lecturer, founder of the National Council of Women, anti-child abuse activist)
“Alien illiterates rule our cities today; the saloon is their palace, and the toddy stick their scepter. The colored race multiplies like the locusts of Egypt.”


Carrie Chapman Catt, 1859-1947 (Founder of the League of Women Voters)
“White supremacy will be strengthened, not weakened, by women’s suffrage.”


and my all time favorite

Rebecca Ann Latimer Felton, 1835-1930 (First woman to serve in the Senate)
“I do not want to see a negro man walk to the polls and vote on who should handle my tax money, while I myself cannot vote at all…When there is not enough religion in the pulpit to organize a crusade against sin; nor justice in the court house to promptly punish crime; nor manhood enough in the nation to put a sheltering arm about innocence and virtue—-if it needs lynching to protect woman’s dearest possession from the ravening human beasts—-then I say lynch, a thousand times a week if necessary.”

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:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016
A video relevant to everyone's interests: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWTRF4…
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Yep, it a great video, it shows the stupidity of people.
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(1 Reply)
:iconstarburstia:
starburstia Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016
Augh, this is so boring.

Ok, let's get this straight boy dude my bro. 

1) When we are talking about feminism, I am talking about american history, as is the context, of this entire page, as well as the history, as well as every single thing mentioned. Got that? American history. Let's not get off subject here. 

2) Feminism= equality movement. Where on earrrth literally is there anything to the contrary? Has there actually been ANY harm to men at ALL by saying, WOW DONT GROPE WOMEN. I am completely serious. Why are you so against the idea that sexism is bad? It looks like a kneejerk emotional response to the fact you are offended someone has different problems than you. Tell me in little words your clear opinion. Is sexism good? If the answer to this is in any way yes, I'm sure this discussion will be as pointless as possible. So let's start with the basic terms. Sexism is bad. Racism is bad. Sexism exists. Racism exists. It's 2016. Are we agreed? 

3) Speaking of: Racism is, and continues to remain a problem. The fact of the matter is while the stated idea of feminism, which is neither an organization, governmental interest group, or a political party (this may be news to you, I'm not taking anything for granted here anymore), is that "women should be equal to men in society." That's the general idea. I say this because it's gonna get real hard to get more specific, as feminism is a general idea. I've noticed men tend to get really offended by because they have literally never heard of sex-related problems in their entire life lol. Look, it's not an insult when a girl goes, "damn it would be great not to be condescended to," ok? This is not attack on you. Calm urself. Let me reiterate: Feminism is not an organization in any definition, it's not a club, it's not a monolith, so in your crusade to villainfy it, how about you start stating some sources and facts of harmed MEN that somehow can be linked to the idea that sexism is bad? Remember, you are making this some sort of gendered issue. 

4) Now, this may also be news, but the KKK is a literal terrorist organization. It is an ORGANIZATION, not a special interest group, and not a movement, and not a political party. This means it has explicit goals and a membership. It is an organization dedicated to killing or making the lives of black people miserable, as a literal and sole objective. That's why mentioning both in the same sentence, implying feminism (the vague ideal) is the same and also possibly is the KKK organization, is a bit illogical, to say the least. Ok, right, let me repeat myself. It is an actual logical fallacy. It doesn't make sense. It's just some kind of ominously damning nonsensical statement, common of this thoughtless rage. False equivalency. Please research logical fallacies.

5) Suffrage was definitely definitely caused and championed and founded by women. In fact, men of the day were rather offended that women were getting all uppity and wanting "votes" and all. It would mean, of course, the total destruction of home values and also society. (That is sarcasm, but still the exact gist of what was being said. historyengine.richmond.edu/epi… (there's a lot more, just google)) You will notice a common trend of treating women like a different species that will totally destroy various ideas, as if anything huge would change besides gaining the right to vote and maybe a little political representation, how bold. There were also women against suffrage who thought much the same. But suffrage was definitely a women's movement, which was definitely needed as the right to vote is basic and should be granted to everyone, race and sex should be irrelevant to that. This is not offensive, and is just historical fact. It is also historical fact white people were racist, and suffrage groups were composed of white women. Despite the right to vote, racism was still very prevalent, as it was since the founding of the country. That is bad. However, another reality of history is that black men got the right to vote in the 15th amendment was ratified in 1870, and women (white and black) got the right to vote in the 19th amendment in 1920. Suffrage was literally over a century old by the time it's first objective was completed, and after that it just sort of dissolved, despite the fact women were never actually guaranteed equality by constitutional amendment. This is bad, it means this doesn't rise to a strict constitutional review. time.com/4010569/womens-equali… And understand, suffrage was a movement. Not a political party, organization, or general idea. 

6) Now that we got this little history lesson out of the way, let me reiterate this one point that is just ignorant to ignore: Feminism was super necessary for women to get the right to vote, are you kidding me? It certainly wasn't just going to happen magically. Women tried to go to the piddling amount of counties that allowed women and were literally bullied, blocked, and barred out of the stalls. Since you went through the effort to look up famous suffragettes, did you see how the marched, jailed, and starved and whatnot? There are many photos, articles, and stories. If you're going to base your argument of "feminism is the literal devil" on historical precedent, starting with suffrage is a terrible idea. There was a clear inequality based on sex, and the right to vote is one essential as the right to free speech. Feminism was practically started there. 

7) In my frank opinion, feminism benefits men. Of course it doesn't benefit men as much as women, in the same way not being racist doesn't benefit white people as much as it benefits black people, but it's definitely no imposition or threat??? somehow on being male. Literally it's not. The general idea of feminism is multi faceted. First is the cultural ideals. "Men are stronger than women." "Women are weaker than men." You can rationalize this general cultural idea all you want, but here's the rub, the main issue, the part people have beef with: this affects women's rights to a) sports team b) military organizations c) family law d) reporting sexual assault and c) governmental opportunities. It shouldn't. Just to mention a few I can skim off the top of my head. Genetically speaking, if we're saying sex varies by the hormones, then women have weaker upper body strength using that really vague thing as a base. But also: there are women stronger than men. There are men weaker than women. These people exist not even as exceptions, because sex is a super almost arbitrary way to separate people, and you can't make laws and job opportunities unfairly based on sex. It shouldn't mean anything, and yet, women were only allowed as ground forces on the military in 2016. Can you believe that?? That's right, sexism just doesn't disappear conveniently or magically over generations. It's carried over until someone forcibly changes and enforces it, by law usually. 

Ok, if you don't understand, turn this around. This is also scientific fact: women have a lower center of balance then men, and therefore better balance. However despite this, there are men who have better balance then women. There are women who have worse balance then men. Because of this, men are not barred from participating in say, the gymnastics at the olympics. And they shouldn't be. But what if they were? What if they were for generations? In the end, there would be women AND men who would say, 'well obviously, men are worse at this sort of thing than women, so is it really so terrible men are to be banned from gymnastics?' Well... yes. It is unfair and not equal. But as american history dictates, this only happens to women in almost every profession. You're talking general unspecified rage, I'm talking practical application. Address this problem!

Also due to this cultural idea, men are less likely to be believed or treated properly when they themselves report rape or sexual assault. "You lucky dog!" sort of things is the opposite of what should happen. but due to automatically believing women are always weaker, men are less believed when THEY are the victims. See? Sexism benefits nobody. There's no such thing as a good stereotype. Not to mention, the belief that women are weaker offends many women as well, who are constantly condescended to whether you know it or not. There are similar pointless beliefs regarding the hard sciences, random personality traits like talkativeness, etc. It matters, even if it's never happened to you. Boys talking over girls. Boys being more willing to sexually assault girls. Girls being shooed away from sciences. Sexually harassed out of research institutions. Boys not speaking up about rape. It's an injustice, and such an insidious one. 

9) Besides cultural, think about the bigger picture. Why are there so many less women in positions of power? Really think. As a practical, real measure, if the system was perfectly unbiased, then shouldn't there be roughly equal amounts of men and women in positions of political power? More female CEOs? More female professors, doctors, military professionals? 

10) Let's talk personal. I'll get personal, I'll get honest, because who knows what else you won't believe just because you don't feel like it. When I was 10, a pimply middle schooler felt up my butt. When I stared at him in horror, he looked uneasy and told me, "I just want to feel it!" Ok, what would make a boy act that way? What could possibly excuse him the right to just start touching me and shit especially when I said "hell no?" What did he see, what did he hear, what did he learn to make him do this? 

When my little brother called me a slut for no damn reason when I asked him how my business jacket looked for an interview, I made his life hell of course. But what on earth taught him he should do that? Why did he even say that? Why did he WANT to say it so much? What's the matter with him? His friends. 

I caught a ride for one of his friends due to monsoon season wrecking my car and on the way up he felt fit to lecture me on how girls vaginas were used locks, etc etc, and boys penis were not used pencils, and I was like, "this guy is driving me up to my school, I can't actually strangle him." Guess what, I was not even on the subject of sex and whatever, he kept going on and on, even when I turned on the radio. Psychotic! But normal. Who taught him that? Who made him think that was ok? Why wouldn't he shut up? Honestly. "Look, can we stop talking about this?" was encouragement.

My boss in my first job told me to smile every day. He held meetings where he would express the off opinions that "men were better teachers than women." and "women should wear makeup." Of course, that's the most obvious things. The not obvious things were how he would look all the women up and down to make sure we were meeting his nonsensical women standards, refusing to take women seriously, critiquing my smile, promoting men even though they were greener than the women teachers. Asking women to feed him, neglecting his wife, being patronizing until he eavesdropped on me explaining his grossly inaccurate metaphors to a colleague, which I definitely knew he was spying on because he abruptly stopped using metaphors and he also started treating me like a WOMAN who had SASSED. It was exhausting. It was relentless. I never took that sort of job again. The only way to get him to back off was to print out statutes of workplace requirements. For the first time I really understood that it was impossible for me to ever stay here, much less get myself promoted. I'm stubborn, but I'm not stupid or masochistic. As long as my superior didn't believe in equality of men and women, nothing would come of me. 

On my second job I was laughing with some co workers. A guy asked me out and later after the friendly broke up we were discussing 'funny stories.' "Funny story: once a man chased me all the way across a parking lot!" "Funny story: once a girl wouldn't take her hand off my thigh in the car! We were all drunk but I said "no."" "Funny story: once I was in minnesoda and this taxi driver-" lots of funny stories. My funny stories somewhat outnumbered theirs, and afterwards, the guy asked me why he couldn't send dick pics to girls. I honestly wondered what his reaction would be if guys suddenly started sending him pictures of their dicks.

Three weeks ago I think someone had sex with me while I was asleep. I was rejecting that guy for weeks. He kept following me, making innuendo, forcing kisses even when I threatened to stab him. He had weird issues about his mom being one of my professors and was a friend of a friend. We were at a friend's house, in a large group, I had bad allergies and tired from sneezing, nodded off on the couch. When I woke up my panties had been pulled down. 

Last week I went over to a guys house. He thought I was flirting with him, even though I wasn't. I barely even talked to him. I've given up on telling guys I hate them and I haven't been flirting with them, because they always take the fact I even mentioned flirting, dating, or sex to be a positive message that I was flirting with them. The last time I had said it some guy pushed me against the wall and tried to make out with me. 

I went to the bathroom. He was outside, belt undone, suddenly kissed me. After some diffusion, I left. But I knew he would never let it go, because no one lets it go, no one EVER LETS IT GO. 

I could go on. I have a lot of funny stories, just like everyone else. 

11) I would prefer for it to stop. And I think you should, too. After all, isn't that kind of desire only human? 

12) I am just going to go ahead and assume you showered the poor girl with hate messages, because I have no faith in you and you are ignorant and classless. That sort of temporary harassment is not illegal, guy. So no one is trampling your rights here, but that would represent your general worth as a person, see? Morally speaking. What possible proof could she provide? There are a hundred reasons why she couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't. This shit happens everywhere, to be frank, and if you'll scroll down, you'll see an almost identical post I wrote on different subjects. The link only said the man didn't get a response. That is not definitive proof of anything. For all your weirdly specific but misaimed gripes, you are very vague, general, and rationalizing ideas to fit your conclusion rather than the other way around. 
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
"Augh, this is so boring."

you mean you penning a giant gish gallop of irrelevancies? I would agree, so why you felt the need to do so, without actually rebutting any point made i'll never know.

"Feminism= equality movement."

no it doesn't it equals a special interest group.

An equality movement is predicated on the idea of equality, in this case legal equality as well as equality of opportunity: If it only benefits one group, while another groups disadvantage is completely ignored then it's not an equality movement, it's a special interest group. Same thing happens if said ideology is the one disadvantaging people away from equality.

So if feminism is an equality movement as you think then you should be able to easily answer the following question: Name one real world change instigated by feminism as an ideology, for the specific benefit of men and boys in the first world towards the goal of equality.


"Has there actually been ANY harm to men at ALL by saying, WOW DONT GROPE WOMEN."

Except that's not what feminism is & yes feminism has been a huge force in legal disadvantaging men from the Duluth model being the go to model for government funding for ALL domestive violence shelters, a model that specifically states that men cannot be victims of intimate partner violence even though the CDC shows it to be a non gendered crime, to VAWA, to California's yes means yes legislation attempting to shift the burden of evidence for innocent until proven guilty to guilty until proven innocent, to the tender years doctrine which is the biased basis of all family law, to the fact that women have the right to vote without the obligation to serve, giving them free legal rights men have to earn.

"Why are you so against the idea that sexism is bad?"

No one is against the idea that sexism is bad, people are against feminism because
A. It does not care about actually fighting against sexism.
B. Doesn't fight against sexism.
C. Is predicated on its own foundational ideas that are themselves sexist.
D. Is the number one source of self perpetuating sexism.

An we aren't just talking socially here, we are talking legally.

"I've noticed men tend to get really offended by because they have literally never heard of sex-related problems in their entire life lol."

You mean sex related problems like
-Paying more for insurance on the basis of gender
- Lacking for any and all reproductive rights
-Having to sign up for selective service in exchange for basic legal rights women possess by default for free
- Retiring later
- Dying sooner
- Making up 94% of workplace deaths
- 97% of combat fatalities
- 81% of all war causalities
- 80% of all suicides do to lack of services for men
- 165% more likely to be convicted of a crime when compared to a woman who is being charged with the same crime
- Court bias against men is 6 times larger than that of racial bias
- 60%-80% of all homeless people are men
- Lacking any legal protection in every aspect of family law
- VAWA, all of VAWA
- etc etc

Now it's your turn, what legal rights do you think it is women lack exactly?


"Now, this may also be news, but the KKK is a literal terrorist organization."

Actually it's not. It is not recognized as such under American law & since that's the only qualifier it actually isn't a terrorist organization, which is why it's allowed to do things like run public events & does so.


"It is an ORGANIZATION, not a special interest group, and not a movement, and not a political party."

Actually it's exactly an organization. It has even been declared such by the white house.

"Suffrage was definitely definitely caused and championed and founded by women."

Actually no, it wasn't.

Suffrage is not the right for women to vote, Suffrage is the right or privilege of voting and is frequently incorporated among the rights of citizenship, it is sometimes refered to as enfranchisement: So no, women didn't invent the idea of voting. An even playing devils advocate for a second even if you mean specifically womens right to vote then no that still wasn't invented by women & it was championed by many people, but wasn't feminism. You are thinking of the Suffragettes, which are a very specific ideology which was unrelated to the underlying concept of suffrage as espoused by suffragists. In fact in England they actually set the suffrage movement back.

 "In fact, men of the day were rather offended that women were getting all uppity and wanting 'votes' and all."

LOL, except they didn't. Since we are talking about Americans suffrage, women ALREADY voted, first they voted under the old colonial voting rights system & then after individual enfranchisement replaced it they voted in many states and territories BEFORE the law was amended to insure that women could vote, since prior to that it was not illegal for women to vote, it simply wasn't assured under the law. 

"There were also women against suffrage who thought much the same."

Yes, they were feminists under the prohibition movement.

"But suffrage was definitely a women's movement"

"Now that we got this little history lesson out of the way"

LOL I justl ove that you think you are teaching history, when we both know you are copy and sticking things you don't actually understand.

"let me reiterate this one point that is just ignorant to ignore: Feminism was super necessary for women to get the right to vote"

Except it wasn't, because as was pointed out already suffrage wasn't achieved by feminism, nor suffragettes, it was achieved by suffragists who were pushing it through the courts.

"In my frank opinion, feminism benefits men."

It doesn't, but I've already given you a chance up the page to demonstrate that by answering my question, but you know what i'll restate it here: Name one real world change instigated by feminism as an ideology, for the specific benefit of men and boys in the first world towards the goal of equality.

If you can't give an example then it doesn't in any way benefit men towards the goal of equality.

"First is the cultural ideals. "Men are stronger than women." "Women are weaker than men." You can rationalize this general cultural idea all you want"

Except that's not a cultural ideal, is a biological reality that comes with sexual dimorphism. It is literally demonstrable and objective, so we can skip the rest of this non-point.

"Ok, if you don't understand, turn this around. This is also scientific fact: women have a lower center of balance then men, and therefore better balance."

Except that a lower center of balance does not mean better balance. Balance or equilibrioception is a result of the inner ear working in conjunction with the visual cortex of the brain, it is not predicated on where ones center of balance is. So again we can skip over your points relating to this because your initial premise is wrong.

Man you just can't get a break today can you: Every time you make a statement it ends up being objectively false. 

"Besides cultural, think about the bigger picture. Why are there so many less women in positions of power?"

Because women possess freedom of choice & make life choices that result in less women in positions of power. There is no conspiracy, women possess the same freedom of opportunity that literally everyone else possesses, they simply use that freedom to make choices that suit their own preferences & those preferences statistically aren't aiming for positions of top authority.

An when ever a woman complains about this my answer is always the same "Great, it's good to hear that you are dropping everything to dedicate the next 4 years of your life to get a business degree, then put your entire life on hold to be the next big thing in a specific high end influential industry & then sacrifice the few remaining aspects of your personal freedom to work a 70 hour week to finally get the position of CEO of a corporation.... What's that? You don't want to do that? Hmmmmmm, sounds like someone is utilizing their freedom of choice to make a life choice more in keeping with her preferences."

 "As a practical, real measure, if the system was perfectly unbiased, then shouldn't there be roughly equal amounts of men and women in positions of political power?"

Only if you assume women and men are identical  robots & want identical things. But they don't because they are biologically different, which results in them wanting different things, being interested in different things & focusing on different goals.
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(2 Replies)
:iconapeirial:
Apeirial Featured By Owner Apr 3, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
Please cite your sources, if you have an actual credible source I can read, I will definitely believe you and "takesies backsies" what I said.

(Also sorry for the inactivity)
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 3, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
That's not how tat works. You are the one making the positive assertion for the existence of a thing, that means you have the burden of evidence to prove that it is what you say. But there is a simple way to prove it's an equality movement, and not just a special interest group.

An equality movement is predicated on the idea of equality, in this case legal equality as well as equality of opportunity: If it only benefits one group, while another groups disadvantage is completely ignored then it's not an equality movement, it's a special interest group. Same thing happens if said ideology is the one disadvantaging people away from equality.

So if feminism is an equality movement as you think then you should be able to easily answer the following question: Name one real world change instigated by feminism as an ideology, for the specific benefit of men and boys in the first world towards the
goal of equality.
Reply
:iconapeirial:
Apeirial Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
I'm sorry, but you are you asking me to provide evidence of something I asked you. You are the one who made the assertion, positive or negative, if you want to be coherent you have to provide a citable source and a creditable reason for an assertion. You do not slide that off. And I used to use this logical fallacy until I took a step back and realized how much of a cunt I looked like.

Let me first say, that I am not a feminist just because I argue against you. And feminism is still needed today. Just not on tumblr or first world places, we need anyone feminist or not to help people in third world countries.

The objectivity of most feminists don't claim to be in the support of giving men more rights. Want to know why? Because everyone in the country you live in has equal rights, which is why people whining about how oppressed they are on the internet is the last thing we need.

The point of it is, until men are oppressed, feminism won't do anything, nor will anyone else with an open mind.

~Toodles
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:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Apr 5, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
"You are the one who made the assertion, positive or negative, if you want to be coherent you have to provide a citable source and a creditable reason for an assertion."

That's not how that works, but as I already pointed out that regardless of that point we can easily see that it's not an equality movement by me asking you a simple question: Name one real world change instigated by feminism as an ideology, for the specific benefit of men and boys in the first world towards the goal of equality.

"And I used to use this logical fallacy until I took a step back and realized how much of a cunt I looked like."

You are still using it now: yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burde…

"Let me first say, that I am not a feminist just because I argue against you."

No you are a feminist because you are a feminist.

"And feminism is still needed today."

It's not, as we will have demonstrated by your attempt to answer the emboldened question posited above.

"Just not on tumblr or first world places, we need anyone feminist or not to help people in third world countries. "

We actually don't. Since being able to identify a problem doesn't mean that ones ideology has any merit. First thing you need to do is to prove that feminism has EVER been necessary & the first step in doing that is in proving that it is not a special interest group & is instead an equality movement & to do that you have to be able to answer the emboldened question.

"The objectivity of most feminists don't claim to be in the support of giving men more rights. Want to know why? Because everyone in the country you live in has equal rights"

Except it's not. There are no legal rights in Australia that men possess that women don't possess, which fyi had nothing to do with feminism. However the opposite doesn't hold true: There are a whole plethora of legal rights women possess that men don't possess including reproductive rights & family law rights to name but two.

"The point of it is, until men are oppressed, feminism won't do anything, nor will anyone else with an open mind."

Oppressiion & inequality are not the same thing. Now I hate to break it to you but men do in fact face legal inequalities, so where are the feminists fighting for equality for those things? Or to reiterate:  Name one real world change instigated by feminism as an ideology, for the specific benefit of men and boys in the first world towards the goal of equality.
Reply
(2 Replies)
:iconnabium:
Nabium Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2015
Evil? Which evil things are you talking about?

I criticized the parts of feminism with roots in Freud and continental philosophy for being lofty headed and not taking the ideal of equality honest enough, so I cannot really relate to any evil things, I criticize them in continuing the myth/ideal of the man as the central gender in society. That isn't really evil, it's a misjudgment. Religious words like evil freaks me out; it implies there's an intention for doing bad. If you think some people of certain ideologies go around doing evil stuff because they have other ideas than you, then I should have to inform you that we do not live in a Lord of the Rings world with good and evil forces lurking around; everyone is trying to do their best out of their perspective and whatever hurt they create is based on lack of understanding and lack of empathy. We all have the intention of doing good out of our own narrow perspective, the problem arise with the fact that in addition we are all blatantly egoistic beings.

And early feminism really did fight for the right for universal voting, fair pay and other basic rights as far as the history I've read about my continent and country. Whether or not you deported criminals had it the same way in your history, I really do not know Matthew.
Reply
:iconmatthew-lane:
matthew-lane Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist
"Evil? Which evil things are you talking about?"

The social evils like when being given a chance to rewrite the FBI's rape definition, DELIBERATELY & with intent, NOT including rape by envelopment, all so they could keep on pretending that women don't rape men.

Or how about there representatives going to places like the United Nations in an attempt to change anyone from disagreeing with them into a crime known as "virtual violence", as a way to utterly destroy free speech for nayone disagreeing with them?

Or how about feminist groups attempting to change the laws so men are guilty until proven innocent in alleged rape cases?

These examples aren't bad, they aren't naughty, they aren't misunderstood, they are categorically, by the book examples of evil. These examples are the kind of evil science fiction writers once wrote novels about & people laughed & said things like "this could never happen in real life, no body would stand for it." Notice what all these things have in common? They are all designed to punish a perceived out-group for crimes against a perceived I-group, keep this in mind because it becomes important later on.

"Religious words like evil freaks me out; it implies there's an intention for doing bad"

There is an intention, a specific one: The benefit of ones own in-group versus everyone else. It's why all collectivist ideologies are inferior to individualist ones. A collectivist  ideology can justify fucking over 100% of individuals in a demographic to "save" the collective of that demographic & do so on a regular basis.

"And early feminism really did fight for the right for universal voting, fair pay and other basic rights as far as the history I've read about my continent and country."

Except they didn't: Those are all prime examples of things you think feminism did but was done by others. universal suffrage wasn't achieved by feminism, in fact the suffragists vanished the second their in-group got the vote, long before poor people, people who couldn't read & black people got the vote. 

Not a single fair pay acts across the globe was introduced by feminism.

"Whether or not you deported criminals had it the same way in your history"

Us deported criminals had suffrage long before you did & guess what: Feminism wasn't involved there either. Oh and just as an FYI Australia wasn't founded by deported criminals, Botany Bay was.
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