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By Apsaravis   |   Watch
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Published: February 10, 2009
© 2009 - 2019 Apsaravis
I'm tired of all those people saying "I don't believe in evolution because [insert random creationist crap here]". (And creationism includes all that "Intelligent Design" stuff, hope it's obvious)
You can't say "I believe/don't believe in evolution", because, well, it's not a matter of belief. :roll:
People who reject evolution most often simply have no idea what it is about and that's rather sad.
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[link] - thanks, *SageGoat

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Tarquinius-Superbus's avatar
Incredible there are actually schools in the US that teach kids evolution doesn't exist. This misinformation must be stopped
RensKnight's avatar
RensKnightHobbyist Writer
I don't see why evolution wouldn't be the means of creation.  In that light is is really awe-inspiring to consider that we have the privilege of getting a little window into how God's work was done.  Even the "dead ends" and the creatures that are now extinct serve a purpose in my eyes, to teach us about how biology and ecosystems work.  That is knowledge we can apply towards caring for our current world.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
The following is a good resource for the one who desires to better understand why evolutionism is a dead philosophy; searchcreation.org
PRM03's avatar
PRM03Student Traditional Artist
"Evolutionism" doesn't exist. It's called evolution and it's not a philosophy, ideology or belief. 
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
If evolutionism doesn't exist then we wouldn't even be talking about evolution in the first place. Evolutionism is simply adherence to evolutionary philosophy as the explanation for our existence rather than creation.
PRM03's avatar
PRM03Student Traditional Artist
There's no "evolutionary philosophy". You should not only learn what is the difference between evolution and theory of evolution, but also the difference between science, philosophy, and religion.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
In speaking of evolution as a "philosophy" I'm referring to definitions such as "a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means; a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought; the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group" so yes [the theory of] evolution is very much a naturalistic (and pseudoscientific) philosophy.
PRM03's avatar
PRM03Student Traditional Artist
Scientific theories are not "chiefly speculative rather than observational means". I'll repeat what I said: You should not only learn what is the difference between evolution and theory of evolution, but also the difference between science, philosophy, and religion.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
That makes absolutely no sense. I never said that scientific theories are chiefly speculative rather than observational in nature, and telling me to "learn this and that" (and implying that I'm supposedly ignorant on these subjects and the various definitions and usages of the particular terms mentioned) rather than making a case for your stance is one of the worst and most juvenile responses I've ever seen (if you're just a kid however then I'll cut you some slack). Try again.
PRM03's avatar
PRM03Student Traditional Artist
Is "that's a bad argument, try again" what you consider a good argument? You're just pushing the burden of proof to the other side of the discussion. It's you who's making bad arguments, defending false ideas and calling people dumb and childish (and this can be seen in many of your comments).

Evolution is not a philosphy. It's a biological process that can be observed directly. Saying it doesn't exist is like saying rain doesn't exist. The *theory* of evolution is the explanation to how this process works. And the theory is as 'proven' as a theory can be. Gravity is one thing, and the theory of gravity is another thing. One is the phenomenon  we notice all of the time and the other is the explanation to it.
Accepting the theory supported by the most evidence is your safe bet, but if the current theory of evolution was proven wrong, the process of evolution itself would still exist, and would simply find a better theory to substitute the previous one.

You can't treat science and religion the same way. One looks for answers based on the available evidence, and the other claims to already have the answers, to be all-knowing and unquestionable, and ignores any evidence that contradicts its "answers". Any objective, rational, scientific study will come to conclusions contrary to religous literalism, and even the Catholic Church admits that most of the Bible should not be considered factual. 

Creationists like you are simply refusing to understand evolution and other areas of science because it contradicts what you've been trained to believe in and still want to believe in for whatever psychological reason - but science is not based on beliefs, because they bring nothing but blindness to facts and distance from reality. Creationists are destroying Christianism by making it seem like something for ignorant people, even though the highest authority in the Church has already dismissed the validity of Creationism. 
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TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
get that creationist pseudoscience wank out of here 
TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
Because it's pseudoscience. It starts with the conclusion instead of starting with the evidence and drawing a conclusion from the evidence, and worst of all it doesn't even have evidence. There's a reason any credible scientist supports evolution and it's not a dead philosophy (it's not even a philosophy, evolution is a scientific fact and the theory of evolution is a well supported scientific theory (not to be confused with the daily-use word theory which has an entirely different meaning). There's no arguments in the scientific community about evolution because of the overwhelming amount of evidence. Meanwhile all sources about creationism claim a lot of things that do not have any support, or straight out fake and misinterpret science on purpose to support the pre-written conclusions in the bible. 
Creationist-method by TheGhoulAvenue  
It's the farthest from science it can be. 
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
Why? I would rather suggest you cease this juvenile attitude of yours.
TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
People are more likely to accept evolution if they understand it. Education plays a huge role in it. Most christians where I live accept evolution and just believe God put the first living thing on the planet and gave it the ability to evolve, which isn't entirely accurate but hey it's a solid standing ground as opposed to creationists "everything popped out of nothing" and then blaming us for believing something came out of nothing (hypocritical much aye).

For anyone who is actually, honestly interested in learning about evolution and how it works, I really do recommend the linked website because it does a good job at summing it all up. 
They also have a page for common misconceptions, which is great.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
Well, you've really got to define your terms first. Microevolution (or natural selection or speciation) is undeniable and a non-issue. But it is macroevolution (essentially and simply put the concept of microbe to man across aeons of time) that is the real issue, and that is what anti-Evolutionists or Christians/Creationists really refer to when they express disbelief in or disapproval of the general concept of "Evolution" or "Evolutionism" as a philosophy, belief or religion. In this sense, yes, you can indeed say you don't believe in "Evolution". Indeed, some people who reject Evolution may not properly comprehend why they even should reject it, but then again, there are also a great deal of people who know full well why they do good in rejecting that belief in Evolution.
TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
Macroevolution and microevolution are the same thing and no evolutionary scientist even differenates between the two, only creationists do as a self-defense.
There is no debate about evolution. Get that nonsense out of here.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
They're evidently not the same thing, but that's the best excuse the evolutionist can come up with, and at least creationists have been honest enough to differentiate between them. At best, macroevolution could be argued as being microevolution dragged out across aeons of time, but that's still merely a half-truth. Microevolution is simply small scale change or adaptation within living things (something which can be easily observed and documented), whereas macroevolution (assuming it was ever even real) deals with the sort of large scale change as displayed alongside the conventional geologic timeline, or for instance "turning a microbe to a fish, or a theropod to a bird, or an ape to a man" (which obviously cannot be observed nor documented and which is blatantly contradicted by actual science, but since that's the best the evolutionist can come up with, and since they don't want anything to do with the reality of God and creation, they keep promoting it in spite of its deceitful and poisonous pseudoscientific nature). Claiming there to be "no debate about evolution" is merely a sign of naiveté, insecurity, and straight out being in denial, seeing as the topic has been intensely debated both within evolutionist and creationist circles since the concept was first proposed (noting that this even spans before Darwin), and the promotion of it as a working concept is merely a charade kept alive through masterful and deceptive illustrative and authoritative skills, and the general public is generally unsuspecting and merely swallows whatever they are being fed, and then carries it forward if the taste of it is sweet, and suddenly you've got an entire society brainwashed by evolutionary philosophy (where morals are no longer objective and the value of every human being has been relegated to that of any other animal or material things), ultimately heading for eternal damnation for having turned their backs on the truth and abandoned God and Christ's gift of eternal life. We only have this one life to decide whether we'll be slaves to sin (and end up in eternal torment) or slaves to righteousness (and experience eternal joy). Turn your back on the Devil's sweet lies and get right with God while there is still time. Heart 
TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
All I hear is religious brainwashing propaganda I've heard from any other evolution denier, it's the same stupid spoonfed bullshit with you all.
You should stop writing long winded crap and don't try to argue about well established scientific theories with people that know more about science than you.

And no thank you, since I am well aware we only have this one life I will spend it trying to do what I enjoy without putting any rules by some hundred year old book on the limited time I have. When we're dead we all rot in the ground the same way, might as well enjoy the little time we have and try to be a nice person to everyone around you. That involves to stop spreading lies. The devil doesn't fucking exist.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
What I'm hearing from you is, first off, crystal-clear insecurity in that you evidently don't know how to properly respond to the issues raised and rather resort to insulting and trash-talking your opponent (which I would recommend that you avoid), and second, that you're very much in rebellion against God and doesn't want God in your life or to have anything to do with anything that you do (because, after all, we all know that we're in big trouble, because we've done a lot of bad things in this one life we've been given), but you'd remain in darkness, and keep letting the Devil deceive you with all his sweet lies until you eventually step through the gates of Hell, rather than coming forward naked and ashamed into the light and admitting in front of God that you're a wretched sinner in need of redemption through the precious blood which Christ as God in the form of an innocent human being shed for your sake on the cross of Calvary, to pay the price for all your sins only so that you could enter into Heaven and experience eternal joy together with God and be welcomed into His family, destined to inherit the future New Earth where there will be no more death, sorrow, or suffering.

We can cry and complain all we want, but if you choose evil over good, darkness over light, rebellion over humility, Satan over God, then you only have yourself to blame, and in Hell there are no more second chances (while this current life is filled with them, though none of them are guaranteed), but you will spend eternity the way you wanted by crying and rebelling against God as much as you can and constantly experience all the shame, regret, and pain without end and God will never ever again hear you, because your decision has been made. As C.S. Lewis once said; “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.” I love you, as a fellow sibling in the world, and all I ask is for you to be wise in this. Again, this one life is a gift, so please don't waste it by rebelling against your Creator, who even died on a cross for your sake so that you could be free from the darkness. Heart 
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
TheGhoulAvenue, since you blocked me, I'll just post my reply here;

If there were evidence to definitively support evolution then I would have remained an evolutionist. The world wide web is also a major reason why I ceased being an evolutionist after 20 years of passion, so that sort of cancels out that argument. But what you're doing right now is, rather than proposing an argument, you're telling me someone has a good argument even though you don't yourself, and describing the opponent's words in terms of "blah-blah-blah", which merely goes to show you don't really care whether it's true or not, but you just want an excuse to remove God from your life and falsely hoping that this excuse will somehow save you from Hell. Thus, you're being a hypocrite. Creationists knows (just like you and me) what the reality looks like, and they choose to submit to that reality.


Or as Romans 1:18-25 states; "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen."

We all naturally know that God is real, because He's written that knowledge within our very being and it is so clearly perceived when observing and experiencing our incredible existence in this world, and God's Word makes it clear that Satan is a real being seeking to deceive people at every turn and wage a pointless war against his Creator. God and Satan remains very real regardless if we choose to reject their very existence, and doing this only makes things so much worse for ourselves, and it's a symptom of Satan's deceit taking root in us, and the fruit that comes from it is far from sweet.

The reality remains this, you have broken God's laws and chosen to do what is evil and wicked over what is good and righteous, and thereby you deserve death and to spend eternity in Hell and there's nothing you could do to change it, and the same goes for all of us, but rather than letting us all enter into an eternity of suffering, God chose to pay the price in our place as a perfectly innocent human being, all because He loves you and doesn't want you to go to Hell. But if you now reject His gift of eternal life, you only have yourself to blame, and you'll experience the bitter fruits of that decision for all eternity.

None of what I've done here is forced, but all of it has been said in a voluntary spirit with brutal honesty, genuinly concerned about the soul of another fellow human being. As far as "being nice" goes (or perhaps you mean "being a good person and doing good deeds"), there's no justification for what is good or bad without God, but without God there is merely personal preference (i.e. anything goes and nothing is actually/objectively wrong nor right), and moral terms such as "good" or "bad" are rendered meaningless, since there would no longer be a Lawmaker to establish and uphold them. Furthermore, I don't need a book to tell me to be good either, after all God has written His Laws on our hearts through our conscience, though this type of "moral compass" has been corrupted since the Fall of Man in Eden and is thus no longer fully reliable, but we do need (especially in our currently fallen/sinful state) God to make clear to us what is right and what is good and it will be our responsibility to heed and fear His Word, or face the consequences of rebelling against Him and choosing evil, darkness, wickedness, and self-righteousness over God and what is righteous, good, just, and true. But it gets worse, because we are in a broken state and desiring to sin against God, we are far from good people, even if we occasionally commit to good deeds, we still have to answer to God for all our evil deeds and trespasses of His Law, and we would all be doomed if it weren't for Jesus Christ.

///
I believe there is nothing after death and every living being faces the same fate of non-existance. No joy, no pain, no feelings, just what we were before birth. Non existant.///

Yet we all naturally know that there is an afterlife, and as the Bible states, God has written eternity on our hearts, and we will all face His judgment sooner or later. We will continue to exist for eternity in one of two places, either that will be in a state of eternal joy in the presence of God in Heaven, or in a state of eternal suffering in the absence of God in Hell. This remains true regardless what we think or feel about it. This type of mindset of yours is self-refuting and precisely what nullifies concepts such as truth and morality. It would ultimately mean that people can do whatever evil things they like and live their lives in any destructive ways they like and get away with all of it, and it means all our talk about things like "love" is an arational illusion.

///If you believe I will burn in hell for ever for simply not believing, fine whatever, let me barbeque my own legs with satan, it's none of your business anyway.///

Whatever you decide to do is of course your own decision and you're going to have to stand by that decision when faced with the consequences, and that's what concerns me as a Christian, I don't want a fellow human being to choose Hell over Heaven, it would be a most tragic end to your story, while you would've had a future had you only chosen to accept Christ's gift of everlasting life. Again, we only have this one life to decide our eternal destiny, so please don't take that lightly.

///Here's a taste of your own medicine, have fun with it.///

I fail to see what you're referring to, and you make it sound as though I intended to hurt you, which is far from what I've been trying to do. I'm merely attempting to reason with you, and help lead you closer towards salvation. But again, whatever you decide to do is ultimately on you, but I hope that you would be wiser than what you've already displayed of yourself. We all have an inescapable appointment with our Creator, whether we like it or not, and we better make sure we made the right call. God loves you enough to die for you, and I love you enough to reach out to you, regardless how it is perceived. Heart 
TheGhoulAvenue's avatar
TheGhoulAvenueStudent Digital Artist
There's enough sources of evidence for evolution, but I've argued with creationists before. It's right there, the linked website, the world wide web offering scientific research papers.
But they don't listen, they disregard evidence with bad excuses, or when they run out of arguments they just stop responding. All you do is make up excuses. All I hear is blah, blah, blah.

I don't believe in satan or god. I didn't ask jesus to die on the cross for me. I'm not the kind of person who needs others to die for me.
I don't need your forced fake love. I have friends for real love. They don't need any being in the sky to tell them to be nice or anything, they do it because they want to.
And not because a book tells them to. And that's the most honest kind of love to me. The only kind that matters, and the only kind I have for them. 

I believe there is nothing after death and every living being faces the same fate of non-existance. No joy, no pain, no feelings, just what we were before birth. Non existant. 
If you believe I will burn in hell for ever for simply not believing, fine whatever, let me barbeque my own legs with satan, it's none of your business anyway.

"Creationists knows (just like you and me) what the reality looks like"
Yeah because life evolving over millions of years makes less sense than man being made from dirt and women from his rib, as well as talking snakes and those damn evil fruits of knowledge. Let's ignore the fossil record, dna evidence, and anything else just so we can believe the shit a hundred year old rag written by random folks ages ago. Get a grip.

Yeah if you were smarter you'd be an evolutionary scientist, If I could fly I wouldn't drive with a car, ect. 

"The reality remains this, you have broken God's laws" 
which ones? Being rude to some random prick on the internet that pretend they know what evolution is?

"We all naturally know that God is real"
No. I don't. I naturally realised god is not real, I naturally realised satan is not real, and life is suddenly clear to me. 
I don't need god to be a good person. I am kind because I enjoy being kind, and I do not need anyone to tell me to do it or else I'll burn in hell, or whatever other stupid threats. It's personal enjoyment, not a higher power commanding me or whatever. 
If you like god so much maybe go take a look at /r/watchpeopledie and think about how an almighty being cant fix any of that.

I grew up believing in god but I lost that belief and I feel a lot better. I'm actually less paranoid and more content (when nobody is talking absolute horseshit in front of me, that is). 
I do not need a mile long text that pretends to care about me by some random stranger that doesn't know when to shut the fuck up and stop shoving their religion into everyones damn face. 
I'm actually doing a lot better life wise now than I did when I still believed in a god, and when I was agnostic. Now I'm pretty convinced there is none. None of those mythical beings exist. They're just fun to look at in fictional drawings and stories, but that's about it.

Not everyone needs religion. Some are better off without it. 

Christianity can go fuck itself for all I care.
Melnazar's avatar
Except that, in science, there is no debate about the validity of evolution (and what you refer as macroevolution is merely a cumulation of speciation events). 
4eyes0soul's avatar
4eyes0soulHobbyist Writer
Pellchinnn is a troll. Your best bet is to post the evidence and then block him. He does these shitposts and then blocks you when you go to point out his lies.
Pellchinnn's avatar
PellchinnnHobbyist General Artist
Horribly phrased. Rather, among Evolutionists, there is barely no debate on the supposed "validity" of Evolution as a philosophical framework. I was an Evolutionist for 20 years, and it took me several years to dare to come to terms with the reality of it being a dark, amoral, irrational, unscientific concept of a worldview. I believe it's pretty generally understood that macroevolution (if it were ever real) should indeed be an accumulation of changes produced through means of speciation (natural selection or microevolution which, unlike macroevolution, can be tested, repeated and observed), but alas, speciation does not produce this supposed "accumulation" of genetic changes to the organism, but species are produced by means of the decrease of information in the genome, each change gradually destroys the entire lineage of organisms. The actual process of speciation goes downhill, not "uphill" as Evolution would demand. The stone cold truth has to be faced sooner or later, Evolution is none more than an elaborate work of science fiction-fantasy. In other words, you can't go from a microbe to a human being simply because logic tells you (assuming the microbe ever by some strange process succeeded to arise on its own) the microbe will go extinct long before it could ever turn to anything even remotely close to even a worm.
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