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Do you believe that art can fundamentally change your sense of who you are?

Vote! (66,318 votes) 834 comments
71,039 Deviants Online
A few weeks back while thinking about this journal, I came across a forum for paid photojournalism jobs. I left it some time later in complete shock. There I found posting after posting about jobs paying nothing, next to nothing, or promising payment and then paychecks never arriving in the mail.   I sat there, closed the laptop lid, and thought for a long while.

I know I’m fortunate to be paid for what I do.   A big part of this is because I specialize in something very few photographers are doing at a professional level. But what most people don’t realize is that even at this level a large percentage of my workload involves pay negotiations.  There are contracts that took months of negotiation.  Some took weeks, or a single week, or several days, or a flurry of emails or texts in just a few minutes.

Every single one of those initially low-balled me; offering me starting contracts at 10-20% of my regular rate.  And despite publications threatening to walk (and at least half will threaten to), I often land the print run anyway...and at what I was asking for or close to it.



The Myths of Freelance Photojournalism Pay

Myth: “The internet (translation: your photo) should be free!!!”   

Reality:  Well then cameras should be free too, shouldn’t they? Also, lenses should be free. And monopods. And filters. And batteries. And memory cards. And rain covers. And hotel expenses and gas and food and plane tickets and the various licensing fees I have to pay and any injuries I incur or damage to my machines.  It takes real time, effort, experience and money to get a single fraction of a second like this.  I'm a serious professional in my industry and my work is not and should not be free.  I contact every theft I find.  Sometimes I invoice them.

Myth: “No one pays for freelance work.”  <---this is bullshit. See it. Smell it. Touch it. Remember it.

The Truth:  Actually, yes, they do. All publications worth their salt have a photo budget and an established standard day rate or individual photo rate.  This rate will vary depending on how established a photographer you are, how unique your photograph is, and the terms of the editorial license itself (for example, do they want exclusive rights to print it, or first run only, etc.)

Remember these publications have been in business for decades. They’ve published tens of thousands of photos in that time.  They have a photo budget and a rate and they negotiate like pros. Negotiate with them. 

Myth: "Photojournalism is dying. Therefore, we can't pay you."

Reality: Photojournalism is all industries (transportation, education, medical, etc.) as we make the switch to ever changing technology.  But it's still a profession, will remain a profession, and professionals in any industry, even in the middle of change, are compensated appropriately for the service they perform. 

But What am I worth?

That is the big question.  Most people fail because they have no idea. I was in that place very early in my career, but it changed quickly when I figured out I did have worth and I charged accordingly.

How do you determine your rates? First, there are five things to consider:

YOU.   How established are you? Are you an amateur? A hobbyist who got lucky? Are you looking to be pro?  Are you already professional? How long have you been in business?  Who are your typical clients? What is your typical subject?
THE CLIENT.  Is this a newspaper? A magazine? A book? Online? Print?  How long have they been in business?
THE PHOTO SIZE/COLOUR.   How big will the image be on the page? Are we talking a quarter page? A spot?  A half page? Is this the front cover?  Black and white?  Full colour?
THE CIRCULATION.  How many people purchase this publication? Do they have fewer than 1000? Over a million?  Obviously, the number of customers gives you an idea how much a company might be able, or not able, to pay for your image. Do your research.
THE PHOTO.   How unique is this shot?  How valuable is it? How quickly do they need it?  How difficult were the conditions to get the shot.  Did you have to climb Everest for it? Or could any joe schmoe on the street have gotten a lower quality but still useable photo of the same subject?

I have a sliding scale for all of my images based on that five criteria. At the lower end of the scale might be an image that isn’t entirely unique, feeling more stock-like, or where I know I have a lot of competition.  At the higher end of the scale, might be a unique image I know only I got or one I can tell they really want and for good reason.  If images switch to colour or suddenly become a front cover, that price goes up accordingly.  I also may lower my scale slightly as a courtesy, one that is purchasing multiple images, or one that is at a very low circulation rate.  Often we make up the difference in various add-ons that can be converted to monetary value such as advertising in the publication, tickets, or being forwarded to another potential client. Remember these are negotiations.  Negotiate until both parties are happy, and don’t freak if they don’t talk to you for a day or two. It’s normal.  
Second,  don’t be afraid to ask what their standard rate is.  Like I said before, if this publication is the real deal (and their answer to this question will give you either good flags or major major bad red flags) they can and will have an answer. But always ask and ask first if you can. They’re used to being asked this question, and they will have an answer for you.  And it’ll probably be lower than what you want to hear.  But just because they do have a rate, and it’s lower than what you’re expecting, don’t be afraid to mention what your own rate is and that you're willing to compromise.  You never know. :)

How much should I charge?

This is the worst question. lol. Hard to know without knowing you personally.  I will, however, forward onto you information that was given to me by fellow pros when I first started.  There ARE actual photo quote products out there. They are good and almost all decent publications are familiar with their invoices.  It’s an option.  

There’s also these free options, but they aren’t perfect:

National Press Photographers:  
Editorial Use Calculator:…

Remember to always consider your unique criteria. And don’t be afraid to ask other photojournalists what they charge.  Some might tell you or help you find a honest quote.

Should I ever work for free?

This is obviously controversial.  For me? The answer is yes.  And no.  In my mind, nothing is ever free.  Everything is a negotiation.  Even if it’s “free”, it’s not. If I’m not receiving real money, there needs to be something of comparable value involved in terms of future work.  I typically only do one or two charity events per year for foundations that mean something to me personally. That’s it.

If you work for free...a lot....

1. You aren’t going to make any money.  That’s logic. Please accept logic for what it is. Logic.  Reality. Inescapable sadfest.

2. The tax service of whatever country you belong to is going to kick your butt and shut you down within a year or two, I promise you.  So...stupid stupid stupid idea.  Still want to risk it? You better be able to explain why you gave away your work for free and have it make sense.  No, you probably won’t be able to.  So don’t do it.  

3. You really are undermining others and especially yourself.  Remember how much it hurts to be told again and again that you and your work aren’t worth anything? Why on earth would you ever agree with them?  Why would you ever agree with them on behalf of all of us?  And why on earth would you reinforce it?!!  

If you're going to work for free remind yourself you should be getting something of comparable value.  And never, ever, ever, take paid work away from another photographer. If someone has a bid that involves pay and you offer to do the same job for free?  Don't. Please.  It's unethical and it's cruel.  When no one is paid, no one pays their bills.  Not them. And not you.

What about AP/Getty?

For the average photographer with a shot to sell, their criteria are often very difficult to meet.  You have to have a very solid portfolio, a truly great image or a mega-useful one.  They WILL require a model/property release form for some shots.  Sure, the likelihood that you will be sued is very low without one, you don’t have the money, so you probably didn’t even bother at the time you took the shot, but these big firms do have money and they will want those forms to protect themselves. Sometimes even for editorial...just in case.   This is a pain.  Why? Because most people, especially strangers, freak out the moment you hand them a form with lots of legal mumbo jumbo. You will need to learn how to get these forms in case these agencies require them.

Second, if you’re a college student and you worked for a college paper your work might have been published with them.  Remember the college owns your work and they can and will sell it if the big boys ask.  It’s still portfolio points for you, but you probably won’t see a dime unless you’re lucky.

Respect your Potential Employer (even if they insulted you)

This will be a short section because it's common sense.  I always handle negotiations with complete respect. If negotiations get tense, it's okay to take a break.  Be firm in your value, compromise only where you're comfortable with it, but treat them with respect.


Another short section.  Also because it's more common sense.  Get any agreed terms in writing, with clear statements and the words "I accept these terms" from both parties.  There are dozens of templates for editorial licenses online, please research them and use them. Don't release it until you are paid or a clear contract has been established. 


So that’s really the gist of it.  I can’t tell you how to negotiate word for word, because it’s a craft and it varies.  But I can promise you that all negotiations, all successful negotiations, begin with knowing what you’re worth and committing yourself to defending it.   Yes, it’s stressful, but when that first real paycheck just might frame it.  After all, it’s the first one of many and you can cash those future checks instead. ;)

:heart: Like the information provided here? Please favourite, comment, and help spread the info! :heart:


Journal Entry: Mon Jul 28, 2014, 10:39 PM
Hand by jfdupuis Geronimo by EintoeRn Hand by jfdupuis
Attempt of description by Greyguardian Success StoryBurned notebooks. My only successful suicide.  Attempt of description by Greyguardian
... by golpista schachmatt by aerendial ... by golpista
sdh by dasTOK
the ninth gate by Tom-Ripley the loner by korrox the ninth gate by Tom-Ripley 
On the edge of the world by igorsev Contraposition by SplitEnsds On the edge of the world by igorsev
SUSA X6 by KizukiTamura unsustainable by chriseastmids SUSA X6 by KizukiTamura
Ifrit by lostknightkg
Colibri' by martaraff Mgh IV - St. Georg in the Puddle by DpressedSoul Colibri' by martaraff
im garten IV by BuChWien PNEUMA by menervaTau im garten IV by BuChWien
A. by ValeriaVi at the window by JakezDaniel A. by ValeriaVi 
State of mind by everypathtonowhere
A whiter shade of pale by Barnum60 life philosophy by tuminka A whiter shade of pale by Barnum60
Seeing Red Again by SepticSkeptik My Sunny Day, Colour Up by MadGardens Seeing Red Again by SepticSkeptik
a storm of words unspoken by PsycheAnamnesis Blitz by alisinwonder a storm of words unspoken by PsycheAnamnesis
SUSA X5 by KizukiTamura
egomania 09 by skarabokki Epalette by siamesesam egomania 09 by skarabokki
passant by aerendial Supersquares Smaller by azieser passant by aerendial 
50 Immersions by KizukiTamura Electric Way by CarlosBecerra 50 Immersions by KizukiTamura 
goodbye forever by VesnaSvesna
Bullevole by lombregrise INRI by Maciej-Koniuszy Bullevole by lombregrise
Horizontale by KizukiTamura Motion by RichardLeach Horizontale by KizukiTamura
the coldest night of the soul by nicotiniac Double Face by KizukiTamura the coldest night of the soul by nicotiniac
crocus by nicotiniac
.gmw. by dasTOK Wanted: Lost Happiness by Izaaaaa .gmw. by dasTOK 
Cold Dream Of An Earth Star by chromevanadium We Free Kings by Pierre-Lagarde Cold Dream Of An Earth Star by chromevanadium 
Symbiosis by Izaaaaa Frozen Land by frenchfox Symbiosis by Izaaaaa
No Sign by tholang
Deep Red 177 by Barnum60 4597/courrier sud by TomWasilewski Deep Red 177 by Barnum60
yellow 6 by ltiana355 leaf edge by stachelpferdchen yellow 6 by ltiana355
Wire by Schnitzelyne G(sq) by popp2 Wire by Schnitzelyne
Acer Davidii - the envy tree by Coigach
Leave The World Behind by Menoevil And where the day was, the likeness of the night by Inextremiss Leave The World Behind by Menoevil
The Beach by DasGhul Les BaT/O by atelier-de-figueline The Beach by DasGhul
pipes 1 by ltiana355 the runner by baspunk pipes 1 by ltiana355
The big wheel by popp2
Wormhole by Abstract-scientist Maschine Brennt by DasGhul Wormhole by Abstract-scientist 
Home Tree - infrared by MichiLauke In my dreams I'm there by YourForgiveness Home Tree - infrared by MichiLauke 
Life Forms XI by Art2mys ascent descent by rioMenor Life Forms XI by Art2mys 
Just a Moment by tholang
Untitled 38 by CristianoTeofili Do Me No Harm by tholang Untitled 38 by CristianoTeofili
In Butte County by JillAuville Solar eclips by MushroomBrain In Butte County by JillAuville
Pyronaut by DasGhul Missing by SplitEnsds Pyronaut by DasGhul
2146 by santosam81 the cat by partiallyHere 2146 by santosam81 
Magnificent old stories by AiniTolonen Years of frightful suffering and the death by ZewarPhotography Magnificent old stories by AiniTolonen
80's BonoClock, still working by joeyv7 .121. by dasTOK 80's BonoClock, still working by joeyv7
dAID freMDartet II by freMDartet
Life Forms XII by Art2mys Alzbeta by Trepka Life Forms XII by Art2mys 
Untitled by mldzz sky of steel by Tom-Ripley Untitled by mldzz
3508 by TomWasilewski 4 Dots by Poromaa 3508 by TomWasilewski 
Il y eut un soir,il y eut un matin by amiejo
Don't Stay by Pierre-Lagarde S476 by CristianoTeofili Don't Stay by Pierre-Lagarde
Industrial Disease by VicEberly Tunnel Vision by Markus43 Industrial Disease by VicEberly
Colliding in mind by Mheely Earthling by Art2mys Colliding in mind by Mheely 
When You're Gone by Lucidin
Ein Leben ohne Freude by elzix ladder by aerendial Ein Leben ohne Freude by elzix
Creative Art Gallery by Epytafe Uncle Jack's by hummbuzz Creative Art Gallery by Epytafe
218 by mirrorsinthestreet I'll cry if I want to by partiallyHere 218 by mirrorsinthestreet
introspection by kalivana
The dancer in red. by lomatic ModigliSnape by joeyv7 The dancer in red. by lomatic
". . . Mummy . . ." by joeyv7 Elkapsling by Poromaa ". . . Mummy . . ." by joeyv7
rusted by augenweide 1521 girlmandala by santosam81 rusted by augenweide
so precious is the jagged crown... by beans6677
cast a shadow by partiallyHere reaching out 2 by LittleMine cast a shadow by partiallyHere
Song of the reeds... by ansdesign Life Forms IX by Art2mys Song of the reeds... by ansdesign
dvs140 by ForrestBump orcus by Tom-Ripley dvs140 by ForrestBump
Bilateral Junction by Trippy4U
Amanda's portal by chriseastmids Architecture by jfdupuis Amanda's portal by chriseastmids
Architecture by jfdupuis Luggage by KizukiTamura Architecture by jfdupuis
Luggage by KizukiTamura Amanda's portal by chriseastmids Luggage by KizukiTamura 

This Journal Skin was designed by Night-Beast

!!Feature The Artists #2 (3 Slots LEFT)!!

Journal Entry: Mon Jul 28, 2014, 11:01 PM
I decided I haven't done this in a while so why not. :3 

RULES (Plz read)

  1. ONLY 10 will be featured that means No Complaining
  2. I will choose the 10 and 2 art pieces to be featured it's not first in first serve this time.
  3. Comment Below.
  4. Lastly Fav Whore fav this Journal.

*Have you Both Faved and Commented?*

(You must Fav and comment if you wish to be eligible)
That's it good luck to you all I Love You Emote 

Journal skin by BlackySpyro
  • Mood: Affection

The Unloved Ones - A feature

Tue Jul 29, 2014, 4:15 AM
I noticed I don't make features so often lately. This time I'll show you the works of some 'not popular' artists on dA: artists who have not more than 100k views and deserve more love. 
Hope you'll enjoy the journey. :)

AC fanpic for my friend by narrator366
8 by narrator366 Ff14 fanart by narrator366

high tension by Aldariia
KakaIru by Aldariia KakaYama by Aldariia 
by Aldariia 

Nap in the forest by Lumannn
Rahim#2 by Lumannn Rahim#3 by Lumannn
by Lumannn 

Bird by Pheberoni
cold shoulders by Pheberoni A/T by Pheberoni

Targaryen by aprilis420
confused by aprilis420 supernatural by aprilis420

Bopia by SashaGreen
ihiohiu by SashaGreen poiuo by SashaGreen

Lightning has returned by david-sladek
Sketch Session Day 8-9 zombie graffiti by david-sladek Sketch Session Day 4 by david-sladek
Luna Lovegood by FourCG
Clich... by FourCG Head by FourCG

Acqua  by angelavianello
Fifth Element (2010) by angelavianello Little Mermaid (2011) by angelavianello

Huge congratulations are extended to Reaper-X who has just published his very own first book featuring his Street Photography. It's called 'Nouns (of the Person and Place variety) and can be purchased from here or from here (for Australians!) Check out the 15 page preview here to see exactly what the book involves and some of Oslo's excellent captures. Well done Reaper-X!


More 'Hot off the Press!' announcements...

:bulletblack:ChewedKandi is in Print!
:bulletblack:Charlene Mattson is in Print!
:bulletblack:A Brave Unbodied Scheme
Have you recently been published? Let us know by sending Kaz-D a note!


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Project Educate News

We had a good handful of interesting entries to the Classic Captures Portraiture Contest which was designed to encourage people to explore one of the sub-galleries of the People and Portraits Photography gallery here on DeviantART. The idea was to use some of the tips you learned during the Project Educate week to capture a classic portrait. The theme had to follow the idea of Classic Portraiture which can be defined as follows...
"Photographs of people in traditional pose are often formal, refined and restrained in style while a plain and simple background is a popular feature for a Classic Portrait."

We had some great entries which can be found here and without further ado - here are the results!

1st Place

Tom's Urban Adventure by Pierre-Lagarde
By Pierre-Lagarde
Winning: 6 month sub + 100 points

2nd Place

rebloom by kerrybush
By kerrybush
Winning: 3 month sub + 50 points

Daily Lit Recognition for July 30th, 2014

We are proud to feature today's Daily Literature Recognition!

You can show your support by :+favlove:ing this News Article.

Please comment and :+fav: the features and congratulate the artists!


Suggested by: Edges-to-Everything

Featured by: UnspecifiedUnknown

Jack and the Beanstalkeveryone laughs and says
I sold my bread and butter for
a handful of beans that won't buy jack
but where they see dirt I see 
a ladder brushing its fingers against the atmosphere
twisting up and around itself to form
new growth so green and alive and yes
I may be on the bottom rung and true
I can't see the golden goose from here but
they say there are giants in the promised land
and I hope to God it's true because
I want to feel afraid when I get there.

Jack and the Beanstalk by ReubenDeFlash

Per the suggestor: tigerli-ly's comment says it well:

"...that is the perfect manifestation of not only hoping for the 
better things in life, but also actually taking a chance at bringing 
them into action! I love how you twisted the single-sided 
nature of the moral of the original story and turned it to show 
the positive side of ambition (not necessarily greed)..."

Featured by: AyeAye12

FinalityThe Man of Many Maladies
has flowers that fade to grey,
the dry rot,
the twenty-one grams
and he is already gone by morning.
An overpowering, a tyranny of mind
seeped through the porous skin-
it is there now,
it will be there.
The engine, custom made
by some sick saboteur, is slow now-
it makes gruesome churning sounds,
metal against metal, noxious sparks-
like an expiring titanium bird.
The ivory keys of a piano
play somewhere in a distant room.
There is at least meaning in that.
He hears it and tries to imagine himself walking,
just walking, nowhere in particular.
Where in that place there once was air,
rich and sharp colours,
movement and sound.
Where there were wall-mounted clocks
that could be easily ignored-
other people pass through there,
and will again.
But for him there is just the music,
the music, and the darkness.
Dead on arrival,
I expected to be-
dark magic
with a twist of tragedy,
a flick of the syringe
a plunge.
I lunge forward,
forlorn and trembling-
you can see my ed

Finality by ncaph

Three poems in one, the tale of drugs 
and a victim to them. Sharp as a syringe.


Suggested by: haphazardmelody

Featured by: chromeantennae

Eyes to TellGeordie knows what happened to the 'sno-cone man. Why he don't come round no more. Same time the Reverend's bright, handsome boy Dennis went to visit his relatives in the 'States.
He knows too what's buried 'neath the empty lot, next to the old brewery on Fairview Hill.
Thinking over the things he knows, Geordie gets a sly-puss smile on his face. ‘I got a roof need fixin 'fore hurricane season and me without a dime to spare.’
He’s been letting this one sit. Two months gone and sure bet the Reverend thinks his secret’s safe. But the Bishop’s coming for the dedication of the new church. Now’s the time to make his play.  
He makes sure his lettering on the note is just right. It takes a couple tries―he don't got the steadiest hand no more—then he seals it up good in a nice new envelope and goes to wait patiently by the door. It ain't quite morning bright but he knows the postman likes to beat the sun.
Sure enough not more'n a few m

Eyes to Tell by leyghan

Suggester says: This piece is fantastic for two reasons: 
an incredibly sinister atmosphere and perfect adherence 
to dialect. This flash fiction crafts such a story in so few words.

Suggested by: MagicalJoey

Featured by: TwilightPoetess

RebootI punched a kid twice in fifth grade for trying to see up Gemini Hetherington’s skirt when her twin brother was home sick. The Hetheringtons could get away with things like that if they ever lifted a fist in the first place, but for a Holthausen it was like a criminal offense, and all of the better-neighborhood parents gasped at the news and wondered what went wrong in my development. I sat in the car while the principal spoke to my dad about it. Through the window I heard him warn that I would no sooner be punching Walt Burtons in elementary than pulling a knife on a man for his wallet in adulthood, and that immediate correction was necessary unless he wanted me to wind up in jail with the rest of the scum of Airedale.
While my dad tried to calm the principal down, Gemini Hetherington tiptoed up to the window when her nanny was distracted. At first she signed ‘thank you’ to me through the window.  She breathed on the glass and drew a heart on the foggy circle. T

Reboot by Moonlightauthor

This short story introduces a new and intriguing world, 
and carries some hefty morals with it. 
Also, the opening line is great.

For more information, including how to suggest a Deviation

to be featured, please visit us at DailyLitRecognition.

Thanks so much for supporting the lit community and this project!

~ The DailyLitRecognition Team ~

Prepared by: TwilightPoetess

Skin by SimplySilent

Spotlight Vol. 103

People and Portraits

Challenge Fun #13 Winner!

Tue Jul 29, 2014, 9:24 AM by 3wyl:icon3wyl:


We hosted our thirteenth weekly Challenge Fun in the Deviants Forum this past week for the chance to win a 3 Month Premium Membership or the equivalent in :points:!

The challenge was to create a poem inspired by 'This Is Just To Say' by William Carlos Williams. There were so, so many brilliant entries from so many people that I'd like to mention these people and their poems first. They deserve a special mention for putting a lot of effort into this challenge! :clap:

In no particular order:

I have cried tears of
that were painful in my
morbid bliss.

and which
you were probably
attempting to prevent
from coming.

Forgive me
they were so painful
so graceful
and so pleasing.


I have written my childhood on paper
exploring the beauty of places
that were nothing close to lovely:
city slums, five tree forests, broken homes

and which
you were probably
accustomed to believing there was nothing
in such disappointing places

Forgive me
they were hiding gems under asphalt
so a child would see life in-between the cracks
and so she’d say, “they were there.”


I have lived
dreamers' dreams
that were vivid -
nearly reality

And which
you were probably
at inception

Forgive me
they were necessary
so essential
and so insubstantial


I have stolen
the socks
that were in
the dryer

and which
you were probably
to wear tomorrow

Forgive me
they were delicious
so fluffy
and so warm

--The Laundry Gnome


I have tried
to think of words
that were coherent enough
for this poem

and which
you were probably
thinking as you read
"hmm..good try"

Forgive me
they were just words
so random of words
and so pointless...but hey, I tried any way.


I have flushed your poor goldfish
right down the toilet,
that were most likely belly up
for at least a good long month.

and which
you were probably
wondering whether you should check on dear Chippy and Golly
after being gone on that trip for what seemed like forever

Forgive me
they were smelly and rotten
so obvious that no one had fed them
and so obvious that they were dead.


I have torn out
the stitches
that were binding
my mind

and which
you were probably
were the cure

Forgive me
they were pulling
so scratchy
and so fragile


I have dreamt of a life as a mother,
Raising the three demigods
that were distracting me from this madness you call society,
all ensnaring me with their intangible, unending loyalty.

And which
you were probably
Wondering, "Where has she gone? She's not out for days!"
I wallow fitfully in the moment, deep in slumber, dreaming away.

Forgive me
They were all that I've loved for the past 2 years
So very welcoming
And so viciously possessive.


I have reached for the moon and touched it
held the fury of suns in my palms
that were bruised and scarred and blistered
I have lost and I've fought and I've won.

And which
you were probably
dying to see, but I hid in the sock by your bed.
My mind wanders and trails empty crossroads

Forgive me.

They were better but I won instead.

so and so .


I have forty-three
that were all

and which
you were probably
how it came to be

Forgive me
they were eaten
so fast
and so free.


I have known
the silhouettes
that were born in
loving duets

And which
You were probably
I'd forget

Forgive me
They were temperate
So summery
and so delicate

After some epic responses, the winner is... sheep1215 for their story:

I have lived though a summer made
Of lead paint; humid hours
That were salted with sweat and fatal
To taste, days that stained my hands and never wiped clean.

And which
You were probably
Occupying with your own painted beaches,
Your tan-dyed skin, non-toxic and bright; but my days—

Forgive me
They were like tainted building blocks, that left me
So tediously stacked
And so easily ruined.

Congratulations sheep1215! :clap:

Participate in this week's challenge hosted by diphylla here! If you're more of a visual artist, then check out diphylla's Muro Challenge in the DrawPLZ Forum! :eager:

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